Apartheid denial?

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johnnyhawkyns

You are correct MJ.
You hear so many people say that they never supported it or they were too young but this is no excuse if you still try and justify it.
I am also sick of the people that do not see further than the red peril. You are always blamed by the fascists that you are communist when they do not understand what communism is.
There are a couple of people who do not deny their part in the
criminal activity of the earlier regime.
Alf admitted in reply to one of my answers a few days ago, that. It is OK to kill 500 school kids, if you are doing it for revenge.
There was a case of that boy that killed black workers. Is it OK to go into a school in Sandton or Rondebosch and kill all the kids in the school.Anybody that tries to justify June 16 1976 is nothing more than an accomplice to murderer themselves.( I was in Italy at the time and saw live TV coverage.)
As far as Sharpville goes, of the people killed almost all were shot in the back. Not one had a weapon.
The point was to get arrested for not carrying a pass inspired by Ghandi..
If you read the official reports on that (or the TRC report) you
will see that this was unlawfull killings admitted by people involved. The officer in charge at the time said. I never gave the command but blacks cannot and do not know what peaceful is. ( refering to peacefull demonstration.).
As far as Mandela being at war with SA in 1960 is concerned.
Isn't it around that time that he was made leader of the ANC and split with the PAC because they were too radical and his future leadership was looking at civil disobedients and
sabbotage. Then he was jailed for 5 years in 1962 for leaving the country without papers.
His people were being looked on as animals needing to carry a pass wherever they went or they could be jailed.
There was job reservation so they could not apply for a job even if they were qualified.
They were not allowed to buy alcohol.
They were not allowed to mix with whites or marry out of their group. They lived in Slums or shanty towns and moved out of places like Sophiatown.The list goes on.
I'm afraid that if any person were treated like that then they may also react the way that the black majority did.
The man that would not fight that sort of abuse might be called the coward.
It is time to say we were wrong and either pull together or leave the country to the indigenous people.
In 1994 people were worried that a majority Govt. meant that they would be treated "like we treated them" I remember hearing that as people collected food to store for the future.
Thank your God that that did not happen.
I know that Alf is going to sprout his normal abuse at me but this answer is meant to be my point of view ,so i'm not getting into an arguement over this.
I am not into name calling and to me revenge is not an excuse for killings otherwise you may as well make it legal to punish or harm someones children for something their neighbour has done else has done.
Edit :Dr Melville Edelstein was NOT involved with Sharpville but very involved with the people of Soweto in 1976. After many children were killed the crowd got worked up and attacked Dr Edelstein killing him and putting a sign on him warning Afrikaners. The reason I did not mention this is because the kind doctor had nothing to do with the murder of over 500 people almost all children. I cannot justify his death and would not. However, I cannot justify the killing of even one child as revenge.
As far as me fitting into society in UK. I live in a Lib Dem suburb of a Conservative Borough where I am considered by my friends and neighbours as being right of centre. Believing in fair play does not make me a part of the looney left. In fact I would like to see the replies to ALF if he posted on the main board. That is why he only comes out with his right wing BNP rubbish here. How many votes did the BNP get in the last election in your area. They got around150 here.
My wifes grandfathers have sat in the house of Lords since the 1300's.

conservation chris

Everyone benefited from apartheid even the whites, yes and I did then and still do support seperate development for white and black people.
Whites built the schools for the black people, it was the evil ANC who used to destroy them, we built hospitals for the black people again it was the ANC who have destroyed them also and it was the ANC terrorist who gave AKs to 12 and 13 year olds and told them to oppress any black person who wanted to work for the whiteman, it was also the ANC who organised the rates and electricity boycottes and destroyed the water mains that supplied the townships with fresh running water and made it imposible for anyone to repair them.
It was also the Evil ANC that used to carry out their ritualistic ' necklasing of black people whom they accused of being sell-outs just because they worked for a white man, it was the ANCs youth brigade, hell spawn, that used to burn peoples houses usually with children and old people inside to enforce the stay aways that prevented black people from going to their work, the people who usually formed these ANC mobs were unemployed, drug taking thugs to whom a human life meant nothing.
You may prefer SA now, run by terrorist and criminals, but we remember it when it was peaceful and crime was low key and people could walk in the streets and be friendly to one another.
The reason that SA is now on its way to becoming the new Zimbabwe is because your ANC masters are stealing and corrupting everything that isn't nailed down.
Don't be ashamed of being white, because you may have a white skin but you are certainly not a white man.
MJ did you misspell you initials ? shoudn't it be AK?

Only braindead people cannot see past the ANC indoctrination propaganda.

Johnneyhawkins

As far as sharpville goes you have left out one very important fact and that is that two weeks before sharpville the same ANC,PAC mob had attack the Kato manour police station and butchered everyone there policemen, prisoners even the office cat, this was to be the pattern to be adopted accross SA these terrorist were planning to attack all of the police stations in the townships in an effort to get the police out of them so that they could continue their reign of terror and subvertion of those black township dwellers and perevent them from going to work.
You say that this 10.000 strong mob wasn't armed, get your facts straight, the main bulk of the mob were armed with clubs and rocks while the ANCand PAC were arned with AKs and small arms and the fact that they were shot in the back while facing forward indicates that it was actually these terrorist elements in the mob that actually fired first, killing their own people, the calibre of rounds that were extracted from some of the bodies of the dead were 7.62 intermediary(AK rounds), steel ballbearins, from homemade shotgun shells, another ANC,PAC weapon, now with the memory of the massacre at Kato manour fresh in our minds what would you have done if you or your son had been a policeman in sharpville on that day, it is sad that 64 people out of 10,000 were killed, by who ever, but our policemen were not a sacrifice to Mandela and his gang of thug, terrorists, but if it had been something other than a defensive action on behalf of the police then the body count would have been a lot higher.
When were 500 school kids killed? answer never, Both the ANC and the PAC would use their youth brigader to force the other black kid to join in their riots and they were riots,
This mob of 10,000 school students, aged from14 to 25years, plus ANC and PAC cadres and thugs destroyed houses motor vehicle shops and murdered and set on fire 4 innocent people that had been pin-pointed to the mob as sell-out by the ANC cadres, these were not innocent little children out for a day in the sun they were, they were out of control youths, running wild destroying everthing that they could and again steel ball-bearings were extracted from the bodies of some of the 23 dead,
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5489490,
I have posted a link so that anyone who would know the truth doesn't have to rely on your ANC propaganda, they can see for themselves those peaceful little student pulling people from their cars and burning houses and shops, so don't come here with your
self-righteuos indignation and bullsh1t get your fact straight stop feeding these people with your ANC propaganda.

These students died because the ANC and PAC did not want Afrikaans as the language of Black schools because they saw this as a threat because the Nationalist SA government was in the process of normalising Educational affairs by having one language for everyone, the ligua franca of SA was Afrikaans if we had been permitted to speak in one tongue then the terrorists would have been nuetralized because the next step was integration.
Blacks could not buy alcohol in white areas but they could buy it in the townships at the beer guardens and if they started to fight it would be amoungst each other.
Perhaps you treated black people like animals but this was not the norm, everyone was taught to treat adults black, white or khaki, with respect because this reflected on your family.
After the ANC, PAC led riots Mandela had achieved his goal, the peaceful transition to integration was destroyed.
ANC and PAC split up, you are right, but it was to open up the war on white and black South Africans, from two fronts now, it is harder to catch two rats with only one trap.
The pass laws gave anyone who came into town three months to find employment and a residence, this was to stop the type of overcrowding that and filth that had caused the African and indian township just outside Johannesburg to be destroyed because of disease, (leopracy and cholera) that had broken out there because of overcrowding and filth,
just go and look around the squatter camps in SA today and you will see what I mean.
Your ANC indoctination propaganda may make you a cellebrity and get you free drinks amoung the ill informed people where you have crawled to live but in the final analasys it is all bullsh1t. If you love the ANC so much why are you here, why are you not there, is it to spread your lies?

As for Ghandi why was he not in China screaming about their human rights record of concentration( reorientation) camps
and their abuse of people and restrictive travel laws, mass murder and female babies being thrown out into the street to die, you know why?, because he knew that SA was an easy touch, if we were the murdering bastards that you say we were why wasn't he dragged off the train and shot? You pinko commies give me the sh1ts, facts are really not that important to you are they? as long as you get a free drink.

chickyboo222

What about the reverse racism MJ? What about the reverse apartheid that is going on now. Why does no one point that out. Do two wrongs make a right. I loved the apratheid because everything worked. We were safe, killings were down, and South Africa worked. Now look at it...

M.C.

BLAH BLAH BLAH, what are you going on about this beautiful Friday morning, you know what MJ, if you are white, I will believe in tooth fairies....cause, your comments and your answers,show otherwise

Alf Garnett

Ah an open vomiting of your "White Guilt" that should get all the Begging Bowl proferers out on a large scale. Of course there were plenty of South Africans who supported separate development but I guess you are focussed on the "Security" aspects designed to keep the Communists at bay so you wont get many takers there. And didnt South Africans vote in overwhelming numbers in the 90's in a referendum to power share with the ANC?

ps It will take phlatnose more than 100's of years to sort out the mess he has created but then again he doesnt want to.

Johhny - The usual half truths and misrepresentation of reality concerning
a) My reply
b) Your failure to acknowledge who was behind the Soweto Riots and the reason thereto.
c) The Sharpeville violence- who was there (mostly Adults),what they were doing and what triggered the reaction (an 18 year old inexperienced Policeman) etc.
d) the truth about Mandela and his Communist activities and training. The fact he was caught with enough explosives to blow up half of Johannesburg and the real reasons behind his activities. He was no political Saint as you may believe. He was all about wanting the wealth the Whiteys had created but he didnt want to work for it the lazy sod.He took the way out that all these African Despots took -steal it under the guise of freedom. Even today he continues with his fake "Charity' which was exposed more than a year ago for accepting millions in bribes in the Arms Deal.
e) Fascist? Mussolini was a Fascist and is little more than the defensive cry of the deluded Looney Left you advocate.Common sense has left these shores under the weight of immigration and Labour Policies which we are now paying dearly for.
But no point in arguing with the PC Liberals who watch the demise of 1st World Countries with their "we are all equal" philosophies and bemoaning the immigration and ghettos in London etc. I too live in Hampshire but let me tell you - your political views are completely out of touch with those in middle class England.
Lastly if you want justification of the murder of children ask Mandela and the ANC. They were behind it using Child Soldiers as is typical in African conflicts and they knew exactly what the outcome would be so they are the ones you should focus on. No mention from you of Dr Edelstein and the fate he suffered when trying to help but isnt that also typical of the Looney Left? Half truths,deliberate lies and total discomfort with the truth.

Dinah f - You make the mistake of assuming that anyone who opposes the ANC supported Apartheid and that is exactly the propaganda the ANC spin and want you to believe. Regarding your question "Why Blacks did not turn on Whites." Very simple. It was a negotiated political settlement primarily brokered by the CIA. Each , and I include Mandela and De Klerk, had a specific role they had to play including behaviours etc and for this the US funded the ANC with $50 million and the promise of more. Furthermore the Mandela image was branded by a US Company worldwide to the extent that he stood to personally benefit by millions (which he did). Why do you think he got rid of Winnie? She was a threat to his income from the branding. The other reason is that the Armed Forces and Police were still loyal and under the control of the Nationalist Party. If the ANC and its supporters or any group of Africans started a "war" against Whites they would have been slaughtered double quick. Remember in the 25 years preceeding ANC rule they had not once engaged the SADF in open conflict because they knew they had no chance against the best fighting machine on the African Continent. Theirs was the cowardly way - terrorist attacks on innocent women and children of all colours and the forced recruitment and political indoctrination of Child Soldiers in the Townships to make South Africa "ungovernable."

Johnny - Now you throw the BNP at me. The Lib Dems? Have they got a Leader these days who is either not geriatric or a drunk? Is this your last throw of the dice. I know Edelstein was part of the Soweto Riots but for your benefit next week I will pose a question on Sharpeville. In it I will expose the spin and propaganda of the ANC and show another side to the story. You can answer but try and post facts with links so that it can be verified and not just your opinion.
Finally, Edelstein was ONE of the first killed. Not after many were killed. Stop making excuses and trying to justify what was little more than savage behaviour and a racist attack.

Johnny - Sorry.One last thing. I had a look at your Q&A and more than 90% of your answers are in the SA section. So where do you come from "That if I posted on the main board." You dont except I saw one answer from you saying you would vote LibDem. Johnny,Johnny,Johnny. That is a sad admission - but of course they are Right of Centre and George Galloway actually hated Saddam Hussein.

Duisend-poot

Not everybody was happy with The Apartheid Era. We as kids were always taught to respect all people no matter what colour and we did. We had one African lady who did the ironing for us but she was treated with respect , received the highest wage in the neighbourhood to the extent that people complained to my parents and asked them not to pay her to much as their workers complained. She had a lovely clean room with all the modcons even though she only worked for us twice a week. She ate what we ate and on proper plates and drank out of a decent cup . She loved us and we adored her we called her 'Atta We'. I feel bad about people are still treated in SA and lets not forget that Apartheid is now finished and klaar and they the people of SA have less and is suffering in a worse way. Just before we left SAfrica i worked with a lot of Black people and they all complained and said they preferred the old South-Africa.
My grandparents never had any servants and i am getting sick and tired of having to defend myself , we treated people with respect my kids never said their is a 'K' on a bicycle they used to say their is a black gentleman on a bicycle , they in turn were brought up to respect people . Please don't judge everybody . It is rather silly anyway, it was us that voted for the Black people to get the YES vote and that should tell you something, we wanted change but not the kind of change that has happened. We did not want to stay the rich people the rich whites we wanted everyone in S-Africa to have the same chance. BUT, we cannot be blamed for the murdering, pilvering etc that is going on there, blame that on the Government, they are in charge now and instead of making themselves richer and partying it is now up to them to brighten the life's of the black people.

aquirius

Of course.
"History repeats itself"

Roger C

Only braindead people would ever deny that apartheid was evil.

You seem to be implying that the fact that the Nats were a bad lot makes it ok for the ANC government to also be useless?

It seems to me the ANC has no desire to be better than the scumbags they replaced.

CelesteMoone

Sadly that seems to be the perception, especially by association, i.e. if you're Afrikaans speaking, it's automatically assumed that you're a racist. I can truthfully say I have never been one, never voted for the Nats and abhor my family's attitude to people of other races. Yet people look at me and automatically assume that I am the same. I cannot truthfully say though, that my perception hasn't started to change as we have become victims of senseless crime and I hate to say it, but I have often turned this over in my mind and it seems that there is not so much crime among white people on each other, as there is black on black. I could be wrong.

Joppie

Apartheid was fine till the kakies die lei rieme bekak het ha ha ha
Ask any colored Guy first he was not white enough now he is not black enough ; that's my reason to say apartheid was fine its not the white ***** or the black that suffers it is the kids ,,they are very selfish

Wonderstar

Lol MJ I agree with you 100% some people are now denying what they stood for before,just to be with the !In" crowd.xxxx

bama_kath

I'm not sure what your question is.

Dinah f

To every one, so far, who has answered this question, especially Alf. please try and get a hold of a documentary that was made, I think in the 80's, just before apartheid "ended". It is called; Last Grave in Dumbasa. After watching that, it made me wonder why the blacks did not go the way of the Jews did and punish the perpetrators of those atrocities that the blacks were subjected to.
If after that you still think that apartheid was justified, than God help us all
I hate violence of any kind, but poverty, ignorance, illiteracy can be attributed to a lot of societies ills.

Smiley 3

I was and will always be for Apartheid.

Sprinkly

I agree that a lot of people seem to have this amnesia, I think it is out of embarrassment, they want to distance themselves from it as much as possible ---especially if they are expats living abroad. They don't want to look bad. Very few people will admit to having anything to do with it, unless they are members of some crazy right wing group and then they probably only whisper it in the shadows.

It really ticks me off because it belittles the efforts of the people who did stand up against apartheid.

And of course it will take more than 14 years to fix.

MJ..... except for well known public figures (who can't say otherwise), it will be easier for you to extract chicken tooth than find anyone of them.....If you see the number of white adults who voted before 1994 who claim that they never supported apartheid then you are left with one thing in mind.....the Nats stole votes for over four decades........

......what is also surprising is that these people who NEVER supported apartheid kept quiet quiet when their votes were stolen.....but are quick to brand the new south Africa one party state........

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