Could any of you live with the death of a tourist on your conscience?

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SFdude

I've visited South Africa as a tourist a few years ago. I stayed in the Sheraton Pretoria... and booked day tours to the Sterkfontein Caves, Soweto, and Pilanesburg National Park. I felt reasonably safe with the guides leading the way.

I heeded the hotel's advice about not venturing into Sunnyside or the Western areas. But I did take taxis to Hatfield and Brooklyn for dinner. Surprisingly, I wasn't raped, tortured, or murdered. Imagine that.

Now, I'm sure all those things exist in South Africa. I don't dispute that, statistically, it seems problematic. However, I think common sense and caution goes a long way. And I also think South Africa is a beautiful and historically significant country. I hope to return someday.

Bottom line...there's no place on this planet that's completely safe from crime. I've lived in high-crime metropolitan areas like Los Angeles and San Francisco. I've traveled to practically every continent. Interestingly, the only time I've been mugged was in a metro station in Paris. Murders occur everyday...everywhere. One needs only turn on the evening news to realize that.

I am really disgusted that morons like you keep on harping on one thing time and again. If every person who walks in this country is killed, raped, robbed why are you still able to post your idiotic question here; or are you 'n spook?

We always admit that there is crime in this country. But morons like you who never go to other countries pretend that this is the only country where crime exists. You go anywhere in the world - you are told to take care to avoid being a crime victim.

Who told you that by saying tourist should not come here you'll reduce crime levels? Your questions just shows how myopic you can be!

Malan

This is a really bad question it has to be said. So what you're actually saying is, is that the world tourism industry should be shut down since there is no country in the world with a murder rate of zero? In SA your chance to be killed as a tourist is say for instance 0.000005 and in USA it's 0.0000006 - so those who lure tourists into the USA are also morally bankrupt since they don't tell tourists about the murders in their country and about the hundreds of thousands of violent attacks and robberies that occur there each year.

Ok, I don't think I expressed myself clearly enough here, but maybe you can give us the stats of how many tourists are tortured (lol, I don't think I've heard in my short lifetime about a single tourist that has been tortured in SA) and murdered in South Africa. In 8 years no Aussie tourist has been killed in SA while 158 were killed in other countries such as the UK and USA. So in that case UK citizens should live with that on their conscience, right?

****************

One cannot always refer to individual incidents. You have to tell your reader how many schoolgroups visited SA in the last 10 years. Was that an isolated incident? It's like saying that tourists should avoid Aussie beaches because 3 sex attacks occurred there September 2006. Every year my school welcomes several schoolgroups from Germany, Belgium etc. No one has been robbed at gunpoint. Great answer SFDude.

***************

Ok, I'm wrong, but what torture really means is the following: Torture is the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as an expression of cruelty, a means of intimidation, deterrent or punishment, or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions. (Wikipedia) You see, the only example you have from a tourist being murdered is the one from Germany a year ago. What about the 158 Aussie tourists alone that were murdered in 8 years in USA, UK etc? In 2006 8.4 million tourists flocked to SA while how many was murdered at Kruger Park, Sun City, Table Mountain, Robben Island, at Joburg, Cape Town and Durban Airport? Zero as far as my knowledge is concerned.

Traveller

Ok many of you may have seen that I work for a tour operator that promotes Southern Africa and I expect I speak for many operators although I doubt many, if any, will respond to your question. I speak on a professional and personal level. On either basis of course no one wants another persons death on their conscience but you could ask the question to absolutely anyone in practically every part of the tourism industry. The Far East also has its problems, should we also stop people from travelling there too? What about the pilots that flew the aircraft on 9/11, should we stop people travelling to Bali, Kenya, USA etc because of terriorist threats? We also take a risk every day and everything we do.
People want to travel to South Africa and I personally have booked hundreds of people over the last 10 years and have received as many letters of thanks advising me of their highlights, in fact I have just received a huge bouquet of flowers from a recent client. I have not had 1 client affected by crime.The fact is that people will travel to South Africa anyway. I like to think that we do all possible in as much that I / we advise people where not to drive / visit at inappropriate times. Driving distances are always very managable and in day light hours, night driving is always recommended by taxi - which must not be hailed but called by the hotel or restaurant etc etc. Our clients are advised that there is strife and that they must take care and take sensible precautions.
I recently asked a question How much does tourism bring to South Africa? I believe an awful lot tourist travelling to SA in 2005 was in the region of 7.4 million(470,000 from the UK alone). This provides many jobs in restaurants, bars, tour buses, guides, ground handlers I'm sure I don't need to continue. I always hope that by creating jobs that eventually it will aid the poorer communities which will lower the crime. However I'm not so naive to realise that this will not solve the issues but hopefully lower it. So the answer to your question is absolutely not one person could live with death on their conscience but as long as you have guided in everyway possible and you have stuck to the tourist routes on your itinerary (which even South Africans on this site reassure is fine, such as Knysna, winelands, Hermanus etc) then I feel your conscience is clear. I now expect lots of thumbs down.....
****Addition****
Just read your other question What does it take to convince people that South Africa is not safe? Very interesting responses.
Thanks for your input Moloi well said

Luis

I would say that I would live with it like I would live with the death of a local. I'm not speaking as a South African, but generally.

Now it's only seen as less safe for a tourist if they're attacked more often than locals, and in general most places are the opposite, and tourists are targeted less for major crimes(though minor crimes such as theft I think are more likely for tourists).

But in the end, South Africa needs to deal with the violence problem and unrest, sounds like something is wrong at the core of the society, and it needs addressing.

disgruntled_penguin

SA is NOT safe for tourism.

It's only safe compared to, say, Zimbabwe.

I was there for three weeks visiting relatives, and during that period there was one attempted break in where I was staying, one incident where someone tried to run us off the road at night (probably for robbery/murder), and I witnessed a man in Cape Town being beaten unconscious in front of a McDonalds while hundreds of people walked by.

Yeah, safe for tourists...

Marrs Attack

i lived my whole life in capetown and the only thing that has ever happened to me is that my car was broken into twice.
now i dont deny that south africa has a serious crime problem because it does.but i would not go as far to say that every tourist should stay away because they will become a victim.that is just not true.millions of tourist visit our shores each year without incident.yes, there are a few cases but that can happen to a tourist anywhere in the world.
im sure that people do their homework before comming to SA, just like they would do if they were to visit any other part of the world.

Inquisitive

Hey, thanks for this question and statement. I have been trying to find out about the safety of this region for quite some time, asking different questions about the lawlessness, the political unrest and so on. I have a daughter that wants to travel there and I am very concerned about what's going on. She will be close to Zimbabwe and Mozambique. She has already sent in her application, but has not paid a cent yet. I could never survive losing a child. All of my questions have been met with vague, cynical, and wise-a$$ answers. I have received nothing in regards to the real temperature there or in the form of any serious answers. My daughter will be joining a group that studies the ecosystems and wildlife on several different game reserves. She is 20 years old and has the wanderlust, so I am concerned about traveling on roads that are remote and connect point A to B. That is where I have heard of many reports of lawlessness, gangs that run you off the road, and shoot you for nothing. The most recent example is the Aids doctor and the volunteer women where the doctor was shot, and the women were ripped from the car were also shot, with one surviving. Please don't say it's like anywhere, because the follow up for criminal investigation, the court systems, the police not pursuing such criminal activity is not like any other countries. There is nothing in place in regards to the law for protection and deterrents in such a vast land that is so remote. An emergency vehicle could not even get to you fast enough to save your life.

london.oval

No more comfortably than if I was trying to live with anyone's death on my hands.

South Africa does have a high crime rate in certain parts - no one denies that - read the answers everyone tells the same thing.

But people live out full and long lives and never get touched by any of it, others live in areas where it happens.

for the lady who's daughter is planning to travel there. She is going in a group, if I remember correctly from previous postings to play school sports - she will be so looked after and kept in safety that she won't even know there is crime anywhere in South Africa. No one wants her to go away from this experience with bad memories. If she stays with her group, the parents of the children she will meet will make sure she is well looked after.

South African schools are used to overseas school groups visiting and they take good care of the kids and entertain them royally.

She will have a wonderful time.

people that we know get killed, let alone tourists. we have enough emotion to deal with. wer not taking the guilt for Thabo, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Wanda

Its no Utopia but it is safe enough for tourists to visit. Like I said before, nuthin ever happened to any of my pax.

â™Ą purrlvr â™Ą

ummm.........no?

turniton5

Over 1 000 000 European South Africans, that's over 20%, have left South Africa and many thousands more continue to do so each month in search of a healthier social climate.
These are people who sacrifice huge amounts to struggle through immigration processes and have to adapt to new systems and cultures.
The majority of these have done so on a skills basis.
In other words the cream has been largely skimmed off the top of the proverbial crop.

The balance of the remaining European South Africans find themselves on a downward social spiral of moral decay where denialism and a perverse desire to profit out of a societies downfall are the tools employed to combat reality.

I find myself having less and less in common with some of these morally tarnished whipped boys, who surrendered their eyes and soles while succumbing to the cancerous society created by their ANC masters.
They now have the privilege of lining up, while standing on the attempts of those who fight for a healthier society, to receive a pat on the head.

I am afraid the question which you have asked, is that which can only be posed to a moral society, and will therefore receive so many of the answers that it has.

Commodore

As a South African who lived in Zimbabwe for quite a while, I can fully understand what you are saying. Whilst every country needs the tourist industry to survive, it's really not fair to tell would-be visitors that 'all is well, so visit'. I witnessed some horrific incidents in Zimbabwe concerning tourists and man, it was nasty! No, I could not live with myself knowing that I could have contributed to someone's death, especially after being in Zimbabwe! However, I really hope and pray that South Africa stands a chance to recover before it's too late. Maybe it's too late already? The world says that people in Zim should stand up and protest but it's too late. Why doesn't SA en masse do it now, before it's also too late?

theANCsux

Ditto turnitons answer.

Having read the answers so far my opinion is that the Tourist Industry will find any excuse to disguise/obfuscate/deny the crime situation in South Africa. Their biggest fault in this respect is the disinformation they spread and the omission of information on the Tourist sites. Click on any South African Tourist site and it is most unusual to find any that mention crime without either saying crime is everywhere or in the latest attempt by Cape Info to say that is is in the "poor" areas. What they are really trying to say is that it is in the Townships and in a sense reintroduce Apartheid by saying crime is committed by Blacks in Black areas and the White areas are OK.Then we have the other one " I have lived here for 30 years and never been the blah blah." Of course they never mention that they live in fortresses,behind 12 foot high walls withelectrified wiring, private security,panic buttons,guard dogs and guns and very rarely venture out at night unless they are in a crowd.
The other method they use and have used is to get probably the most read site never mind crime site on South Africa taken off the Internet. They then have their own sites like therealsouthafrica and the other now posted truecrime. What the unsuspecting are not aware of is that both these sites are ridiculed as supporters of crime by hiding the facts and taking any step they can to protect their income.
The bottom line is that the Tourist Industry in South Africa is completely without morals and trying to appeal to an emotion that simply does not exist is just a waste of time. It is better to expose these charlatans for what they are and this has and is beeing done on a regular basis. Sure there are individual South Africans who are ashamed of the crime and would willingly warn Tourists and do but the Tourist Industry needs to be exposed on a regular basis.

Inquisitive - Have a look at the site http://www.crimexposouthafrica.net for the real picture of daily life in South Africa. And how anyone can guarantee the safety of your daughter is beyond me particularly when a group of schoolboys from England on tour to SA last year were attacked and held up by gunmen at a privat function in Johannesburg. They had all these so called protections that were mentioned but it didnt stop the attackers. Needless to say once the initial story broke it was quickly covered up.

SF Dude - I doubt that anyone will dispute that crime is a problem Worldwide but the situation is that in South Africa it is a bigger problem than anywhere else. For instance you are 12 x more likely to be murdered in SA than you are in the States and in the UK this leaps to 50 x. A woman is raped every 3 minutes and a child dissappears every 6 hours. These are SA stats which nobody believes and are completely watered down Interpol puts the murder rate at 2.5 times what SA claim and an internal SA body Rape Crisis states rape stats are up to 15 x understated. You may have been "lucky" on one occasion but what about the 1000's who have not?

dWali

I do not want the death of any person anywehere in the worl on my conscience. It is hwoever safe for tourists in SA.

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