Could you please make me understand this generalizing?

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Freedom F

The answer is because the common Palestinian person is a threat to zion.

The question becomes, "what is the threat?" It is not the threat of a bomb, a gun, or a knife. The common person is a witness and the treatment they receive from the IDF is intended to scare the Palestinian people into being quiet. The greatest threat to zion, is that the truth be known.

Worldluv
I agree with you entirely.

In the Australian news forums, I started out with the intension of study and learning what this was all about. Later on, I would have arguments with zionists as a result of my studies. Months later I would discover, that all of the facts I was bringing to the table (which zionists denied) were in fact common knowledge in ersatz israel. I mean, these facts where in the zionist newspapers every day.

Sometimes after months of arguments, my point would be proved by an israeli newspaper story. Several months later, when the topic rose again, the zionists would still be carrying on with their original story.

Just the other week I asked one zionist to tell me why southern European people had a claim to Palestinian land. He could not give me an answer. He responded several times but he was unable to give me an answer to my direct question. He kept trying to change direct, and I kept stating my question. Finally another zionist answered for him, saying the reason why, is that the southern Europeans were Jewish. If sharing the same religion with another group endowed you with their possessions, Bush would have converted to Islam.

If you go back and look at this forum, you will see the same village idiots with their same disproven arguments. I have no doubt as to why. zionists are brainwashed.

Mr. X

checkpoints are not collective punishment. they are not punishment at all.

is it punishment when you have to go through a metal detector at the airport? or at a football stadium? do we give people the benefit of the doubt at airports?
not, it's security, and everyone goes through it.

we'd prefer not to do it, but women with suicide bomb belts have snuck into israel, terrorists have used ambulances to sneak in bombs, etc.
if an individual soldier is rude, that's regrettable, but they are human. it's more rude to try to sneak bombs into another country.

moneymaker

"Why do have pregnant women give birth at checkpoints?"
Some of the "pregnant" women have been known to carry explosives in place of their baby in the past.

"but why are ordinary people are mistreated?"
I know it is hard to believe, but sometimes it is the ordinary people that behave inappropriately towards the soldiers. Those soldiers are looking for bombs, imagine the level of stress they are going through. They are being instructed to be polite though.

"Why are people beaten up for no reason?"
I am sure it happens on occasion. People are people, and not all of us can handle the authority given without abusing it. Would you accept the fact that sometimes it isn't "for no reason", but it is reported to you as being such?

"Why are ambulances being put on hold?"
Palestinian ambulances are known for their bomb deliveries.

Edit:
Dear h, it is quite simple to me, Palestinians are blaming the wrong guys here. Guys to blame are Hamas, Jihad, and all these other Al'Shmaksa brigades.
If Israelis don't do what they do - the price WILL be too high. It isn't a speculation, it is a fact.
It is the duty of the Israeli Government to do everything in it's power to protect its citizens (Believe it or not I don't think they do enough). It is too bad it had to come to this, but Israel isn't the aggressor here. You and I both know that if Arabs stop shooting - there is no conflict at all.

I suppose we just have to wait until the Arab world matures enough to be able to sit down at the table with Israelis and start talking instead of shouting and shooting.

P.S. Please consider Mister X's answer.

-------------------------------------

Edit:
Just read this part of Mr. X's answer:
"those people defending the checkpoints are acknowledging that it should be done with as much respect as possible.
those against them are staying that israel should be destroyed. "
Brilliant! h, this is it! This is the essence of truth of our ENTIRE argument, right there in those words! Please read, and think hard.

Look, no other nation has the same situation. When they do, we will see how well they handle it.

paperback_writer

I wouldn't dream of assuming that every single Israeli soldier is a little angel. I'm sure that in every army, in every nation, there are soldiers who behave bloody badly. Israel is a country like any other.

And of course there is no excuse if some soldiers behave horribly - I don't condone this, in any situation, either in Israel or anywhere else.

I hear from Israeli friends currently in the army, and those who have served in the past, that they are always instructed to behave with respect and decency. That is the ideal. I gather that many live up to it.

But I guess, inevitably, there are some who have lost family and friends to Palestinian terrorism, and maybe just as Palestinians behave badly through anger and grief, well, so will some Israelis. You can't claim that either side is perfect, because neither is.

You mention 'giving people the benefit of the doubt' - I guess Israelis can answer this better than I can. But if I may draw to your attention: the Israelis do give people the benefit of the doubt. But then take the case of the orthodox Jew who travelled freely and was in fact a Palestinian in disguise - he detonated a bomb and killed several innocent Israelis.

So the Israelis have to be super-cautious and put the safety of innocent Israelis BEFORE the hurt feelings of Palestinians at checkpoints. Any country would do the same.

EDIT

No, that is not logical 'h':). Look: let's say that in a country, all the terrorist acts so far were perpetrated by people with red hair. Every single one! Who will be stopped and treated suspiciously at the checkpoints - red haired people! You wouldn't stop everyone who had hair - which is what you are saying when you ask wouldn't all men and women be in jail! Do you see what I mean? :)

MR X - great, great answer.

EDIT TO B - so all Israeli soldiers are 'pigs', are they? How many have you met? How many have you ever spoken with? How many?

Or are you basing this 'informed' opinion on youtube?

'Cause you know damn well we can ALL find stuff on youtube about the other 'side' behaving appallingly.

EDIT TO MIMI

Name one thing I said that is 'hateful' - go on, one thing. I have been totally polite. I respect 'h' a lot and I always find her polite, open minded, and interesting.

Meanwhile, B calls all Israeli soldiers 'pigs' - but I'M the one being, in your view 'hateful'???

Gamla Joe

Complaints are nice, but what exactly do you suggest the Israeli army should do to fix the problem?

As you yourself said security is needed, but no one likes abuse.

Please give us tangible suggestions on how to fix things.

not, "stop the mistreatment" but actual tangible steps to fix the problem

If this really bothers you say how it can be fixed, otherwise your simply complaining and not contributing.

Michael J

For starters, I would point out that most of the stricter check points are those for entering into Israel proper. These are essentially border crossings, and Israel really doesn't have any obligations to let people in. The USA for example doesn't readily let Mexicans in, hence the propensity for illegal immigration. Thus I would say that 'collective punishment' is innaccurate in this case. People are not being punished, they are being given stringent security measures when they voluntarily try to enter Israel.
What exactly does it mean to give people the benefit of the doubt? Should each individual be given one free go? Cause let's think a second: if that individual is a suicide bomber, then s/he will only have one go. Kinda invalidates the point of security, because one can't learn from experience that someone is dangerous and then stop him. Therefore a more global view is neccessary. Simply, the Palestinians had an easier time at the border crossings once upon a time, and since that led to a large amount of terror, Israel had to crack down and make it tougher. The simple fact is that many kilos of explosives and weapons have been stopped at checkpoints. Included in this are 'pregnant' women who apparently were going to give birth to C4. Ambulances with confused EMTs who when they ran into a building to save someone, they grabbed his weapon stash instead by mistake. Even babies have been found being used as vessels for weapons/explosives smuggling. In effect, Israel is giving the benefit of the doubt and saying that the majority of people who go through are okay, and thus leave the checkpoints open most of the time. If they so chose, Israel could completely close the 'border' and allow only citizens through, and that is perfectly legal. Lastly, I guarantee you that if terror and explosives/arms smuggling stopped completely, the checkpoints would be relaxed to a very lenient standard. No Israeli soldier wants to be stationed there, and Israel certainly doesn't have any love for them. If terror would disappear, so would everything you complain about.

FAISAL B

HI H
you always amaze me with you question and your arguments. According to your question, i agree with you 100% and i have this question on my mined since i was little, there are so Meany Y's in this would want to be answer right to make this world much better for living.
therefor, in Israels situations, they think that they are the chosen ones by god and the rest they are useless "cockroach's", because they think in that way , so it does not matter if they are treated right or so what ever.
and this people any way they do not have mercy in their hart "it is god given".
i hope i get close to answering this question

LadySuri

"but why are ordinary people are mistreated?"

Because ordinary people are suicide bombers. There is no profile for a terrorists--it could be me or you or 'president' bush. If the Palestinians want to stop having to deal with checkpoints, they should get control of their militants.

If we give people the benefit of the doubt, people get blown up. Therefore, nobody gets the benefit of the doubt.

Pregnant women give birth at checkpoints because terrorists have imitated pregnant women with bombs for babies. Ambulances are put on hold because terrorists smuggle bombs in them in sick people's stretchers. Checkpoints are closed when Israeli intelligence gets any strain of information that could bring harm to anyone.

Why are the Palestinians acting so ridiculous? They complain about Israeli "oppression" and all this "unnecessary security" yet they elect a bunch of terrorists to their government who in the past year have been worse than the Israeli "occupiers!"

I don't support violence either, and it is terrible what happens at the checkpoints. But what happens happens for a reason. When a solution is reached, the checkpoints will be removed. When the intifada started, checkpoints were added. There is a pattern.

Snow

It looks like for every wrong doing they have an excuse.

diana

when it's a national security, no you can't give the benefit of the doubt

HopelessZ00

This video is called "Burning Conscience of Israeli Soldiers" many Israeli soldiers are coming forth and now telling the truth. And YES this video was aired in Israel with some debate beforehand. But it was aired. Perhaps people in Israel are starting to see the truth. Peace!

kismet

It is not ok to mistreat people, but you have to consider the following:
On ynetnews.com there was a report a few months back which described the efforts of two pregnant women to become suicide bombers. Another report talked about children being transported to Israeli hospitals on gurneys, only there are explosives under the children...
My own sister in law was blown up by a Palestinian who crossed a checkpoint in order to work in Israel...

subxerorock

I'm not sure about going into labor, or being beaten at checkpoints, but ambulances are held up because ambulances are sometimes used as vehicles for terrorists, unfortunately :(

mark

Military occupation is marinated by force and collective punishments to native Palestinian people. To those who defend the occupation collective punishments polices I pray to God that they will live one day as an average native Palestinian under occupation.

paperback writer

This is for 'worldluv'

You may be 'getting tired' of this forum, but I am getting tired of you.

No matter how much evidence is posted as to how Hamas, and the other groups largely supported by Palestinians claim they are out to destroy Israel, it's the Israelis you bash!

So 'worldluv' why don't you enlighten us all? You imagine you are the prime minister of a tiny country, with terrorists constantly trying to smuggle bombs in, and with your citizens being killed every week by kassam rockets launched from Gaza.

Now, how would YOU protect your citizens?

No Jew or Israeli here has defended bad behaviour; on the contrary, I have read comments from paperback-writer and several others condemning it - perhaps you did not read those?

But you have never, presumably, lived in Israel so really, what even qualifies YOU to preach to Israeli people over their security checks? If they make a wrong call and Israelis die - what is that to you?

Worldluv

I'm getting weary of this forum. It doesn't seem to matter what facts are provided, what EYEWITNESS accounts I share, the Jews on this board continue to defend the indefensible and try to justify abominable behavior from IDF soldiers at checkpoints.

Security is one thing. What happens DAILY (note: not isolated incidents) is harassment, belittling, and unjust actions at these checkpoints.

Why do soldiers do this? Well, the well-known psychologist Zimbardo did a fascinating experiment at Stanford University. They randomly assigned students to be either guards or prisoners and had them live out their roles in a prison built in the basement for this experiment.

It was to last 2 weeks but had to be cancelled after only 6 days because the 'guards' became sadistic and the 'prisoners' depressed. The power the 'guards' had ended up turning to engage in evil acts -- and these were normal, everyday university students!!!

Clearly, the IDF soldiers have too much power. They act without impunity - VERY rarely are there repercussions for their wrongdoing. Since the Israeli government is not taking the responsibility, the international community must put way more pressure on them.

GREEN EYED - First of all, personal insults are not the way to go.

Alright, if I were Prime Minister in the situation you outlined, I would look at the reasons behind why my country is being attacked. What injustices are being committed by my country against them? What are we doing that would incite these behaviors? Realizing that my country is oppressing the people, breaking all sorts of international laws, and basically putting these people in an open air 'prison', then I would not be surprised my country is being attacked.

Therefore, to respect ALL human beings, AND to ensure my citizens are safe, I would change the treatment of those attacking us. I would follow international laws, I would treat them with respect and dignity - basically the way I would want to be treated. By doing so, I would take away the reason for them attacking us.

I don't know why you are not seeing what I'm trying to get at. Hopefully now I have explained it enough for you to realize that I'm wanting peace and security for BOTH Jews and Palestinians.

Mimi- Ů…ŮŠŮ…ŮŠ - ×ž×™×ž×™

paperback has been becoming so hateful and critisizing these days. She used to promote peace but I don't know what happened to her. She generalizes in her posts and speaks doesn't want to hear anybody disagreeing with her.

Peace

paperback I really don't have time for agruing. I have tons of things to do but when Isaid your posts are becoming hateful I meant that question about the checkpoints and the other question about the list of Israeli death. You were genralizing in them and posting those posts doesn't bring peace, it just reminds people of the bad things happening to them and increases hate and animosity between sides. I know that you are a peaceful person and in many occasions you had great posts that promite peace so I found it very strange to switch suddly and start posting such messages.
As for B, she has been like that since she started using this section. Nothing changed about her so I didn't include her in my comments.

Peace

LEE DA

If you have an entity (Izrael) based upon racism don't expect passion and humanity!
Even Zionists themselves admit their racist nature and their admission the partnership with Nazism.

There is no justification to the Zionism immorality , history will not forgive.

Prince

It is very good of your saying that you putting yourself in israeli's shoes but when you are comming out of that you misunderstand the discipline may be in your country ot other.
In POLICE and MILITARY organisation they are ROBORT
use logical operators <yes> <no>.
In this type of organisation a they say if you cannot shot you will be shot, thats simple.

Lizard

It is simple. Proper check up of a person or a car takes time, thus the delays. Ambulances are delayed and checked because it became common issue that terrorists try to smuggle arms and terrorists in the ambulances. Terrorists are posing as sick people or worse yet, there is a real sick person and explosives and/or terrorist at the same time. So if ambulance is stopped and checked palestinians can show the reporters real sick person in genuine need for treatment being delayed. Some wemen fake being pregnant and try to smuggle explosives as well or as few months ago a woman who was 8 months pregnant was cought with explosive belt on her body on the way to commit suiside terrorist atack. All this said - we Israelis are people and among us there are those who can not handle power given to them without abusing it. Just like someone before me already said. Still, I would say that all in all Israeli army stands on very high moral level. I know this because I served in Israeli army and saw both good and bad behaviour. Major point though that while cases of abuse of power do occur they are not in line with the policy but directly against it. Another major point is that in many cases things are staged by palestinians themselves. such as claiming people who got killed in trafic accidents as murdered by soldiers or staging murders just like case with Muhamad Al-Dura

If you ever been to any checkpoint in any country you would know everyone is given a hard time espically if the guys there have been stuck there for hours in the sun with people yelling at them and hurling insults. It is the same way with cashiers, after getting yelled at and insulted by customers they start to just treat the customers like they treat the cashier.

From the Lebanon

Try this for size and check hopeless answer if you want the truth, i promise you the Zionist Government will fall inshallah.

http://english.wa3ad.org/index.php?show=sounds&action=play&id=11

Edit: I have read Ann Frank and i sympathies with the struggle of the Jews in the world War, i even took my children to amestardam to see the house she was hidding in, i just wish more Jews would stop supporting Zionism and remember the pain descrimanation can do to people.

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