Is it safe to assume that Palestine was never an actual country but rather a region?

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kismet

Indeed it is.

A substantial body of opinion has developed in Israel and elsewhere which favors the snappy argument that Jordan is Palestine. Although closely associated with Ariel Sharon, the enfant terrible of Israeli politics, the approach has long been the policy of the Likud party itself. In the 1920s, Vladimir Jabotinsky asserted that Palestine is a territory whose "chief geographical feature" is that "the Jordan River does not delineate its frontiers but flows through its center." In 1982, Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir wrote that, "reduced to its true proportions, the problem is clearly not the lack of a homeland for the Palestinian Arabs. That homeland is Trans-Jordan, or Eastern Palestine.... A second Palestinian state to the west of the River is a prescription for anarchy." A clandestine agreement in 1987 between the Likud party and Faysal al-Husayni, the Palestinian activist, reportedly recognized Palestinian sovereignty east of the Jordan River.

These ideas took more specific form in July 1989, when Shamir raised the possibility of a Palestinian state being established in Jordan in the course of his discussions with Arab residents of the West Bank. According to a report from Palestinian circles, reserve Brigadier General Yo'el Ben-Porat devised the intellectual framework for Shamir's efforts. Key provisions included:

The land of Israel east of the Jordan River shall be the Palestinian state.
In the first stage, the Palestinian state shall be established east of the Jordan River. This state shall enjoy all the characteristics of sovereignty.
In the second stage (after the establishment of the Palestinian state east of the Jordan River) those areas of the land of Israel in the West Bank under Israel's control and areas inside the green line [delimiting pre-1967 Israel] inhabited by Palestinians shall become part of the Palestinian state.
The West Bank and Gaza shall not be handed over to or placed under the sovereignty of the Palestinian state except after peace with this state prevails and is manifested in mutual economic, tourist, and cultural relations, and through cooperation in establishing economic and water projects, in addition to allowing free movement of people and goods.
Shamir's broaching of this subject raised tensions among Arabs, as King al-Husayn scurried to make sure that Yasir 'Arafat and the Iraqi leadership did not plan to go along with the Israelis.

Nor is this just the view of politicians; Mordechai Nisan, a scholar, explains that "nobody ever considered the two sides of the Jordan River anything but integral parts of a single land called Palestine." Many American supporters of Israel accept the Jordan-is-Palestine argument. Joan Peters premises her study, From Time Immemorial, on this notion. She routinely calls Israel a "corner of Palestine" and "Western Palestine," while "Eastern Palestine" is her term for Jordan. George F. Will states that "Jordan is Palestine-historically, geographically, ethnically." Two small but active organizations, the Jordan Is Palestine Committee of Hyde Park, New York, and the Washington-based CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)make this argument with advertisements prominently placed in the national U.S. media.

Spelled out in more detail, the Jordan-is-Palestine slogan holds that Palestine includes the territory on the far side of the Jordan River and therefore Jordan is the Palestinian state-even if it lacks a Palestinian ruler. Instead of two peoples fighting for one land, the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs are portrayed as controlling different territories-Jews in the western portion of Palestine, now called Israel, and Arabs in the eastern part of Palestine, now called Jordan.

The purpose of this change in nomenclature is to undercut any Arab claim to sovereignty over territory Israel now holds. It also makes the Palestinians look greedy; they already have a whole loaf and they want another. It implies that while Palestinians should leave Israel alone, they should feel free to make changes in the Hashemite Kingdom. It also suggests that, because Israel has at least as valid a claim to the east bank as the Palestinians do to the west, the granting of the eastern part of Palestine to Arabs represents a form of Zionist generosity. Finally, it implies that the Israelis may be justified in expelling Arabs to Jordan, their true Palestinian patrimony. In this way, the kindred notions of Jordan-is-Palestine and Greater Israel join the demographic and political issues facing Israel today to create the political agenda of the Israeli right.

This approach to Israel's security predicament has obvious appeal to many Israelis and to those around the world sympathetic to Israel's plight.

Obamas Shoes

I don't understand the point of your question. All of the Middle East was tribal until they were invaded by imperialist Europeans and the country was arbitrarily divided. As a tribal region the land was divided into emirates, as in the current United Arab Emirates and land was passed down along parental lines. Currency was in trade goods and precious metals.

Your are trying to imply that without a formal government, invasion and apartheid is acceptable. It was not acceptable in the Americas when the indigenous people were driven out and it is not acceptable today.

Hatem A

That would be a safe assumption. Palestine historically was a province of whoever ruled the region. It was last a province of the Ottoman Empire. That fact does not change the more important fact that the Palestinian people (the native population of Palestine) have the right to live in their native land, and the Palestinian refugees must be granted the right of return. There was another question posted here lately about the same issue. Here is the link:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=ArjhbBgNJgaFEK7iVktayuzty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20090210180047AA7XIvM

Basically, the whole world is made up of provinces of other countries. Scotland is part of the UK. Montana is part of the US. Bavaria is part of Germany. You can state thousands of examples. Does it mean that such provinces are up for grabs? Does it mean that a certain religious group can come and settle in one of these provinces, claim it as their country and ethnically cleanse the native people out of it?

marry w

I love to answer your question, but we both must look into some historical facts to gather.
The Palestinian political system of government started long before the old Jewish people. You may ask what was the Palestinian old political system of government. The Palestinian City-states existed on the West coast of Palestine when the Jews were nothing but a nomadic people.
The Jews had 2 political kingdoms in the South East of the country 2000 years after the existence of the Palestinian city-state.
The 2 Jewish kingdoms were at wars with each other and at wars with Palestinian city-states.
The Palestinian city-states lasted up to the Roman time and the Roman named the country officially Palestine.
The Roman Catholic Church named the country Palestine too.
All the invaders of Palestine named the country Palestine after the Romans.
The British in 1922 establish a government in Palestine and named it the Mandate Government of Palestine not Israel or Judea.

Note. The nation state terminology is a new term started only in 1800S. Many nations around the world did not exist as a nation when Palestine was known as a nation back then.

With regards to the refugees, If the Jewish" Who is the real Jew?" refugees have the right of return to Palestine after 2000 years should we allow the native Palestinian the right of return to their only native country after only 60 years.

justtruthnointimidation

After the jew was kicked out of Europe in WW2, the UN decided to place the jew in the area then known as the Mandate of Palestine, controlled by the Brits. the problem was, Palestinians were living there, so the jew started ethicnically cleansing the area, but after hitler just tried the same thing, it wasnt such a good idea. bad press...thus the welfared state of israel and all its problems. if only jews werent so racist and shystery they would never have been kicked out of europe in the first place.

Norma Junkie

Palestine was a country. Get that through your thick skull.

HopelessZ00

All the world was just a region until greedy people needed borders. Food for thought. Cheers!

Zeno

No. Mandate Palestine was legally a country,as were the other nations established by the League of Nations after the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. In this instance the mandate was operated by the U.K. but it was by no means a British colony; permanent residents were citizens of Palestine and carried Palestinian passports. The United Jewish Fund was originally the United Palestine Fund. Golda Meir,David ben-Gurion - all held Palestinian passports and their nationality was legally Palestinian. The borders were fixed. Administration was professional and orderly. Why all of the other mandates - Jordan,Iraq,Syria and Lebanon - received their independence,in some cases as multicultural states, and only Palestine was left to be carved up between the Jewish Agency and the Kingdom of Jordon has never been fully explained. We know the sequence of events but the not the motives of the prime movers. No one has ever explained why Andrei Gromyko - Soviet Ambassador to the UN - of all people would have been the first major figure to call for Palestine to be split in order to establish an exclusively jewish country. We know that he did,on May 14,1947; but we don't know why.

^ PaLo ^

"I was puzzled for a long time about the odd belief which apparently persists in America that Palestine has somehow "always been a Jewish land." Recently an American I talked to cleared up this mystery. He pointed out that the only things most Americans know about Palestine are what they read in the Bible. It was a Jewish land in those days, they reason, and they assume it has always remained so.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is absurd to reach so far back into the mists of history to argue about who should have Palestine today, and I apologize for it. Yet the Jews do this, and I must reply to their "historic claim." I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago If you suggest that I am biased, I invite you to read any sound history of the period and verify the facts.

Such fragmentary records as we have indicate that the Jews were wandering nomads from Iraq who moved to southern Turkey, came south to Palestine, stayed there a short time, and then passed to Egypt, where they remained about 400 years. About 1300 BC (according to your calendar) they left Egypt and gradually conquered most but not all of the inhabitants of Palestine. It is significant that the Philistineans not the Jews gave their name to the country:

"Palestine" is merely the Greek form of "Philistia." Only once, during the empire of David and Solomon, did the Jews ever control nearly but not all the land which is today Palestine. This empire lasted only 70 years, ending in 926 BC. Only 250 years later the Kingdom of Judah had shrunk to a small province around Jerusalem, barely a quarter of modern Palestine.

In 63 BC the Jews were conquered by Roman Pompey, and never again had even the vestige of independence. The Roman Emperor Hadrian finally wiped them out about 135 AD. He utterly destroyed Jerusalem, rebuilt under another name, and for hundreds of years no Jew was permitted to enter it. A handful of Jews remained in Palestine but the vast majority were killed or scattered to other countries, in the Diaspora, or the Great Dispersion. From that time Palestine ceased to be a Jewish country, in any conceivable sense.

This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine!

If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!

Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, "homeland" of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

Many Mexicans might claim Spain, "homeland" of their forefathers. They might even claim Texas, which was Mexican until 100 years ago. And suppose the American Indians claimed the "homeland" of which they were the sole, native, and ancient occupants until only some 450 years ago. I am not being facetious. All these claims are just as valid or just as fantastic as the Jewish "historic connection" with Palestine. Most are more valid"

Soccer Darling

Kind of like the way that North America was not composed of "countries", yet the Native Americans were kicked out of their homes and lands to make way for the Europeans.

Happened again, only this time, the Europeans went to Palestine.

TheseBlueEyesWillBreakYourHeart

It is safe for anyone to "assume", knock yourself out...But it's not true. There is no date of "independence" because before Israelis invaded and took over they did not need to fight for their land. One day there will be one though...When the Palestinians regain their independence from the illegal Israeli rule. Does anyone else sense so much denial amongst certain people here?

Bosco

No. That is not a safe assumption. None of the the current countries were countries until after WWI and Palestine was organized into a state like the rest,it just never got it's independence,it still hasn't.

Annie :)

Well, thousands of years ago, when the Hebrews occupied the land they called Israel, it wasn't really a country either, it was more of a tribal area.

So if you want to say that Palestine was just a region, then the Hebrews who occupied that land thousands of years ago were just a tribe. And if we want to settle this matter based on your views, then that doesn't give the present day Israeli's the right to live on that land either.

I don't really spend my time reading up on religious scripts, but I'm not sure that the Hebrews had a President, currency, a year of independence, a government structure, or government officials or presidents.

Besides, before Israel was created by the UN, there were already Zionists who were longing for a country and they got what they wanted. Why is it wrong for the Palesitinians to long for the land that they were kicked off of 60 years ago?

tabasco95

Palestine is a country and isrel stole it from all of us arab now they want to demolish the homes of 105 people living in east jerusalem they are giving them warrents to get out of theyre houses they tell them we dont want you hear it is obvious that israel want to erase all of palestine. they say there is no negtition but there isnt any because everyone know israel will win in the end.

αησηумσυѕ ωιтн тнє тяυтн فلسطين

no, it is not "safe" to assume that palestine was never a country!

how can you explain the millions of palestinians across the world!?

palestine has always been a country till they renamed it "israel" on the maps

Troy B

It would seem so, but previous to the Turks, there was a Palestine.

m i

Palestine is not a nation in the modern sense of the word. It doesn't really matter, unless you are trying to assert that if people don't live in a "nation" having a specific name, e.g. Palestine, then it's OK to murder them, and confiscate land from them, and take over their homes and steal their property. That's what the Zionist/Israelis did to the indigenous people of Palestine.

I take it from your wording that this is what you are trying to assert, that if you don't live in a "nation" you have no right to live in your home, your village, or your city, to own land or run a business in your own land. And furthermore, it seems you are asserting that if you don't live in a "nation" you would not mourn the loss of family members, villages, farms and a comfortable and fairly peaceful way of life, that when foreigners come and point their guns at you and tell you to leave your ancestors had lived in for 1000s of years, you shouldn't be upset.

Such an assertion is ridiculous.

Peace in our time

Based on the information provided, it is not safe to assume anything.

michelle

To answer your question there is a parallelism to the Palestinian and the Native Americans.

When the Europeans came to America their where no Kings That owned all the land, but tribes that claimed it, and lived on it for thousands of years, according to the Mayan calender.

It did not stop the Europeans of claiming it as the promise land. They killed off the Native Americans group by group, and took one piece at a time, and bunched all the tribes together in reservations.

Now within the last 40 years native Americans have gotten equal rights, and if they wish to buy land they have all the freedom to do so. And work, own businesses, etc.
I can only hope that that would happen to the Palestinians.

I am not saying that the Jews do not have a right to be in the land that they originated from, but the Palestinians originated from their as well.
I believe their blood line is more equivalent with the original Hebrews then the modern day immigrated Jew today.

Tyreeisme!

yes

The First Dragon

That's not an assumption; it's a valid conclusion reached after studying the historical data.

yes. it's not an assumption, it's a fact.

"would it not be more accurate to say that the longing for Palestine comes from the need for the creation of their own country "

they have a country. the region of palestine was split into 2 states, one jewish, israel, and one arab, jordan. jordan is 80% palestinian. they already have a state. their goal is the destruction of israel, not nationalism.

h'ayim tovim Y'all

Correct

✡I LOVE THE ZIONIST ENTITY✡

Well, I can and COULD NEVER find it on a map.

And yes, it was a province.

I love their lies.

Steel Rain

You are absolutely correct.

Lupines supports GEERT WILDERS

Hi yes it's just been a region. When people ask that question of a country, then I question what is this Palestine? I do not recognize that terminology it was an artificial name and the attempt is being made to apply it to Judea and Samaria portion of Israel. Same thing different century. Romans named the area Palestine after the ancient Philistines in an attempt to wipe out the Judeans. Jewish people are from Judea, Judah was our largest tribe, Judah was the son of Israel and that is our namesake and our land! When people don't know their history they succomb to revisionism. Hostile Arabs are good at revisionism.. soon to be in a place near you, Londonistan, Eurabia and Andalusia (Spain.)

Palestine is not an ancient people, they were only created as a political movement to make claim on Israel land. Lest one be fooled that this "new Palestinian people" only want the Judah territory, they have already expressed to the entire territory, on more than one occasion and have desire to spread globally. The Arabs have already admitted their plan:

----------------------------
Arab quotes:

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan." -- PLO Executive Committee member Zuhayr Muhsin, March 31, 1977, interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw."

"You Arabs admitted that the [Palestinian] cause began after 1967. The Israelis can sue you now, if they sue you they will win."
Qaddafi to Arab Summit 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP2ePHOLSqo

Never a distinct Palestinian people:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26932

"Palestinians" are nothing more than Syrians as that is what they all claimed to be, and other Arabs identified them as such.,

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -
"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not."
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria."- Rep. of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956

At one point, Jordan tried to claim them. Because Jordan comprises a whopping 80 percent of the former Palestine region:

"We all know the Israeli aggression will not be without consequences.We all know our people have been oppressed by the Israeli occupation, but that doesn't mean we don't have a right to live in a land we migrated to and settled in." Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas PM, 03 Feb 2009 Al-Aqsa TV

"Palestine and Jordan are one..." said King Abdullah in 1948.

"The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan," said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is only one land, with one history and one and the same fate," Prince Hassan of the Jordanian National Assembly was quoted as saying on February 2, 1970.

Accordingly, Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, "The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture."

Arabs themselves already admitted they are immigrants with hegemonious intentions:

"We all know the Israeli aggression will not be without consequences.We all know our people have been oppressed by the Israeli occupation, but that doesn't mean we don't have a right to live in a land we migrated to and settled in." Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas PM, 03 Feb 2009 Al-Aqsa TV

The Islamic nation is rising and awakening and will regain leadership of the world... Death to America, Death to Israel -- Khaled Mashal, Hamas Leader while in Qatar 2/3/06

Hamas In Their Own Voices
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg
--------------------------------------...

One must take into consideration Jewish refugees who were forced to abandon property FIVE times the size of Israel. Muslims do not get to take Jewish property in the greater Middle East, then come squat on more of Israeli land, demanding another portion.. They do not get to abandon their Syrian identity or Jordan nationality and make a new nation. They have their modern country already.

The Forgotten Jewish Refugees
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-693217217048940768

Information and links about the Middle East's Forgotten Jewish refugees
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2009/02/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-muslim.html

✡

1. Ottoman Empire gets defeated by Brits after hundreds of years
2. British Mandate created
3. UN creates partition plan, Israel accepted, Arabs reject Israel and a Palestinian state
5. Arab armies attack, displace Arabs and Jews, Israel gains lands
6. Israel offers conquered lands for peace able to fix refugee problem, Arab states reject insisting of destroying Israel
6. Jordan loses rule of West Bank
7. Liberation of Jerusalem, eternal capital of Israel, loved by Jews

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