Is the oppression of women in saudi religion based, or government based, or family case by case?

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ameen(out for long time)

if you look from public outside view, and compare to west, you might think the woman is oppressed here ..
they don't drive, seperate, relegious police ..etc

but in reality, if penetrate to society, lived with them, taking everything in consideration, you will realize it is very different ..

the thing i never agree is when people compare a good example from the west with a bad example from ME.

fair comparison is to compare good examples vs good examples, and bad examples with bad examples .. (even vice versa)

women oppression in saudi is a public image created by media. in reality, many women in the world (including saudi) are oppressed many are not.

it is interesting to know that vast majority of successful saudi girls relate big part of their success to a man in their life, usually a father or husband, sometimes a brother.

Mintee

well one for the team.. I had a huge response thought out.. but several of the answers above are exactly what I wanted to say..
By whose opinion are you basing the Oppression on? Western standards?
Why does the western culture (which is only 200years old) seem to think we Saudi's. or middle eastern women are oppressed?.. do we have to live your way of life to be perfect?.. The viewpoint of perfect is different in everyones eyes..
SaudiWomen love their lives.. they frankly wouldnt want to live the life of an American women...
Thats a myth of America and G.Bush by the way, who always seem to think he is going to liberate and "set free" sovereign countries that have cultures thousands of years old and survived thousands of years, but he feels they should live their lives like Americans do... It just wont work... Americans are fine and happy the way they live, and allow us to be fine and happy the way we live....

Just me

You'd have to define oppression of women first. Most of the time, I hear things like "women cant vote" , as if men could. They just sound stupid.

I have female relatives who were educated in the US ( higher education ) with their husbands, and like it much more in Saudi when it comes to rights.

Yes, theres always things to complain about, in any country, by both men and women.

Only a very few decades ago, the population of Riyadh was 20,000, now its six million. And some suddenly want women to vote, jumping men even, which makes many believe that its simply about wanting to use women in bikinis as a tool as advertisement, which degrades women, as the society sees it.

I think we need more mens rights. I cant go to a mall in Riyadh alone unless if I have a female with me. Why? because its for "families only"

I go to the east coast and try to rent a boat, and they go, sorry, families only. Meaning I need a woman with me to be allowed to rent a boat for fun.

Unlike what many think, women do work at hospitals, schools, universities, and banks.

Only theres womens sections ( except at hospitals ).

Yes many women cant get certain jobs, but that applies to men too, which leads to the conclusion that its more of an unemployement issue.

Many things need to be changed for both men and women, and any society and country has its own problems.
And Saudis problems are pretty unique since its a very new state that suddenly changed, and changed a lot.

And this is recognized in Saudi but change is slow simply because of resistance to change in society ( change MUST take time ), and beurocracy.

So using very vague terms like womens oppression, freedoms etc, is precieved as very narrow minded and only stems from lack of understanding and education.

In a city that went from 20,000 people maybe 40 years ago, to six million now, with changing demographics, education levels, social values and so on, theres a LOT going on, and jumping to very very vague and relative terms like "freedoms" and "women rights" sounds very very narrow minded and stems from lack of education as I said.

It sounds like something really complicated with so many factors involved, and someone whos simple minded trying to simplify things.

Kinda like Bush thinking it would be simple and easy to simply install a secular democracy in a very diverse country like Iraq.

Not to be taken personally, questions with such vague and relative terms, so simply put that way, without ANY understanding of the region and its history and development, sounds just as stupid as Bush trying to simplify things that arent really that simple.

That way of thinking reminds me of a blonde girl in college who was asking ( about Iraq )... why cant they just get along?

Sometimes it just makes you speechless, and sigh smiling.

private_no_name

I actually asked someone the same question. Btw, I'm an american muslim in riyadh and I love it here.
Its seems its from culture or case by case. and like someone said, it depends on what you mean by "oppression". No, in the Quran it does not say women cannot drive. BUT, it does say that men are the protectors of women, and women not being able to drive falls under that (in my opinion). I am completely against women being able to drive. If it happens, and I pray it doesn't, just wait and see how many kidnappings, rapes, car jackings, etc. happen because a woman is out alone. I'm really sick of people talking about islam and they don't know anything. so sick of it that I didn't even want to answer the question, but I figured I should say something. People in the West want women in the east to be like women in the west - "free". women in the west are more oppressed than muslim women. and let me say here that when I say muslim woman, I am talking about how a woman is supposed to be in Islam (not how some cultures practice islam). women in the west are "free" to be used by men. The walk around half dressed for the pleasure of men. they are encouraged to have a "free" sex life for the pleasure of men. A woman in the west is more likely to be up in some family court becuase she had sex with a whole bunch of men who are under no obligation to take care of her, by the way, trying to find out who her baby's father is. she is picked up by some guy, maybe he took her out to mcd's (or not), they have sex, start a relationship and he has no responsibility. doesn't have to pay her bills, doesn't have to feed her, doesn't have to clothe her - all of this is great for the man. when a couple in the west goes out, its called "women's freedom" that she pays for her dinner. such a trick by the men. women in the west are told "you don't need a man" (not even to have a baby! - just go get some sperm donor) this way, you are "free" (and so is the man by the way...free from any type of relationship or responsibillity. Yes, in Islam a man can have more than one wife BUT he is responsible for them. However, no one mentions how in the west a man has "open relationships" with plenty of women. how often do we hear of some man in politics (or any public figure for that matter)getting caught cheating on his wife. and of course, this is only the ones who are caught.
so many answers to this question are wrong, and like someone said, it leaves you shaking your head. People should ask rather than assume..

Greengo -
In Islam, women are not property.
"In Sharia, inheritance laws and witness testimony in court favor the men, as women do not have the same legal rights. "

This is true and this is because like I said before, men are the protectors and maintainers of women. so if a father dies, a son would get more simply because he is the one who has to provide for his family. the woman's share is hers to keep to herself. her husband takes care of her. and this is just.

"Also, the prophet says in the koran that "hell is filled with women" which is a disturbing thing to say, in my opinion."

First of all, have you ever asked a muslim, why? Probably not, because if you did, it would make sense to you and then you would have no argument. Second, the prophet (peace be upon him) did not say anything in the quran. The Quran is the word of Allah (God). Third, the hadith you are referring to is worded a little different, but to get to the reason behind the statement...This is because women are ungrateful. I am a woman and I can tell you this is true. The prophet, peace be upon him, specifically says that (and I"m not going verbatim here) that when a man does something that is not to a womans liking, she says "I have never seen any good from you"
Next point...

"But the women are led to believe that their inferior makes them "pious" and "devout" so they embrace it to be a good muslima."

Women are not inferior. we are equal, but different, therefore requiring different needs, right, etc.

I wonder where you get your info from...

justme

If treating Women decently and not as objects of commercials is oppression then some form of oppressions are beautiful.

Adam

Its actually from Not following the religion....too much culture....BUT having said that, what people in the west consider women's rights, is not necessarily what Real womens rights are as laid out by GOD himself.

Nile ~*~

To say women in Saudi Arabia are oppressed is to say:

I love to generalize.

*Adam*

I especially love your last sentence :)

Sukara

I find it to be culturally based. There is nothing in the Quran that says that women need to cover themselves head to foot in black, nor that they cannot drive, nor (I believe) that they cannot work, side-by-side with men. But culture deems otherwise.

Having said that, women that the West sees as oppressed do not necessarily agree with that label. Many see Western women as someone to feel sorry for.

It is like comparing apples and oranges - not possible.

lomatar1186

religion based, because the government is based on religion.

Kwassa Kwassa

OK, I know that this may be the last answer I post before getting killed by our local uncle Sam.

But not only me, almost everybody who embrace Islam in the way it should be DISAGREES with the way we Saudis encroach the rights of women in the name of Islam.

Give me One, only verse in the Qu'ran that orders females to be the "Women in Black" and dress like Ninjas. Or also I'd like to see a verse that prohibits women from driving cars.

Islam is all politic here in our Kingdom, all the grand muftis here are Najdis.

I really wish I can go on but it'll be waaay too serious politics and it'd be easier to talk via IM.

Deco

Its based on the government religion and community as well as the individual families.
If the following see it as acceptable oppression is alot more likely to occur

BUSH/ISRAEL =warcriminal

Its radical based which is further backed by goverments ridiculous policies.
It has nothing to do with Islam look at countries like Turkey, egypt, lebanon ect women have freedom and islam encourages women to be modest but never said they MUST wear headscarf if they dont want to.
I hope there would be women rights in saudi soon and radicalism be wiped out for good.
Peace

Salva

Honestly, Saudi Arabia is a joke as a state. I think that is easy to blame Islam of the repression, but the fact is that the Governments of almost every muslim country, don't let Islam to progress. Islam has to develope looking at the future, not turning back time to the past. Islam is not the problem, is the epicenter of an earthquake, but it's not really the reason of the painful situation of human rights in some (maybe most) muslim countries. Only poticians are guilty, not citizens. As in every country (Western, Midle Eastern or Eastern), it's always the innocent who pay for the sins of the sinners.
There are a lot of injustices in the Western countries, of course, any country is perfect!!! But you can't compare what we have to what Middle East countries have (in terms of Human rights, at least). Sad, but true.
Yes, there are bad people in Europe, North America, but the Law usually punish who commit a crime.
In Saudi Arabia, Iran... they kill gay people!! they kill raped women if there are no eyewitnesses!!! A women can't walk with a man that is not her partner or a relative!!! they can't drive!!! they must cover themselves (by LAW)!!! they practise torture!! So, what kind of state are them???
I'm not blaming neither Islam nor people, I only say that the Government doesn't help to improve the human rights situation there.
There is such an oppresion, that many people rather not to fight against the system, because they think that it won't be useful, and a lot of them, are brainwashed by the rulers.
Yes, it happens in Western Countries too (on a lesser level), but... at least we have the chance to change the things.

EDIT: Mintee, Western Culture is not only 200 years old. The Democracy was born in the Old Greece. Western Culture is as old as the age of the current Earth.
And no, you don't have to westernise yourself to be perfect, but yes to be free, or for being fair, to be freer. Just because we have the chance, despite the injustices (that are not only in Middle East). But, what chance have you got in Saudi Arabia? You only have the chance to be like they want you to be. That's the reason why some women don't feel oppressed, because they like their lives, but if you don't, you can't fight for your ideals.

tal

Stone age based.............Saudi's are still living in the past.

greengo

It stems from the viewpoint that women are property.
In Sharia, inheritance laws and witness testimony in court favor the men, as women do not have the same legal rights. Sharia is a legal system derived from the life of Mohammed, who lived around 700AD, which is why it is so medieval.
Also, Koran view is that men can have more than one wife. In Koran, women are "booty" to be divided up by the winner in a battle. If you kill an infidel, you get his booty, which includes camels and goats and women.
Also, the prophet says in the koran that "hell is filled with women" which is a disturbing thing to say, in my opinion.
So although the koran does not say "women can't drive" or "women must wear big black bags" the underlying legal system and cultural system is a part of the religious belief of Sharia and the word of the prophet.
Soooo, to answer your question, all of the above!
But the women are led to believe that their inferior status makes them "pious" and "devout" so they embrace it to be a good muslima.

Women in Saudi Arabia are not oppressed.

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