Western Values?

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HopelessZ00

Very wonderful points made. A few to add, incest rates, suicide rates, shootings at schools, the list goes on and on.
How do we judge which system is better. Unless we experience without judgements both worlds.

I don't know which country you are from H, but I guess many also look at some extremists systems and then judge all by that. The Taliban would not let woman study, work, it was very brutal. In Saudi, woman cannot drive, but I hear now some are working on changing that. Sadly, in the west its become very normal to see such things always, we "wince" when we see it and then change the channel. But when we see something different from what we do, it becomes a big "WOW" and that one point sadly sits in the minds of people . Maybe it also helps us from taking a good look around us at whats really going on, and then making changes....thanks for pointing this out...its even got me thinking! Peace H.

To all that want to know how a devote practising Muslim woman feels , Do not ask CNN or FOX ask her, and she will tell you how she feels

Michael J

Thanks for the compliment.
It is true that crime-wise, there are better places and worse places. If I remember correctly, you live in the UAE, meaning you are blessed to live in a very well to do country, so much so that you don't even need to pay taxes. You can't really compare that to the average in the Western world. Poverty in the western world pales compared to poverty in the rest of the world (as a whole).
Now it's true that because of Western values, the west has certain social issues. I'm not going to try to defend all of them, because many of the things you raised I agree with, though certainly not all. I would point out that AIDS is a tricky point, because most religious states refuse to recognize its existence in their country (as Mr. Ahmadinejad would say, "that phenomenon does not exist in my country"). Libya is a perfect example of this behavior as well. Further, for every homeless beggar in the West there are even more people living in squalor and poverty in non-Western countries that have no excuse. There is no reason that oil-rich countries should have any poverty, let alone the rates they have (obviously not all oil countries included). With a proper distribution of wealth those citizens would prosper, and that would be achieved through a democratic process of governing. The basic premise of the west is that people should have, to some degree, the right to self-determination.
Anyway, I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should respect different societies and cultures. I do no support forcing the American interpretation of freedom on the masses of the world. That being said, I do believe that there are some basic values that are a must cross-culturally. My statements on which this question is based were made with regards an honor killing performed in Gaza. While most newspapers don't go any further than reporting that something happened (if even that), this time around a tape was obtained and described. It is inconceivable that a society can operate under values that allow for 40 men to beat a girl to death in the streets. This behavior, to me, transcends all traditional debates over human rights; That no one, neither the authorities nor the layman, would lift a finger to defend a 16 year-old girl in the face of that is appaling.
This is not a comment on capital punishment, nor even on harsher penalties. If legislature was passed that if a girl loses her virginity she is sentenced to death by hanging (let's say) than that is something to debate over. But that a gang of men can literally crack a young-girl's head open with a rock without anyone caring is unacceptable. It is simply disgusting.

EDIT: It has recently been brought to my attention that the video in question was a hoax perpetrated by Fatah. The video itself is authentic, but the events occured in Iraq and not the Gaza strip. There have been 11 "honor killings" in Gaza so far this year, but I can't comment on their brutality as I don't know anything about them.

NYC Chutzpah

Yes different cultures do have different values and customs.I think Michael meant some of the western values like for instance human rights. In a western country one has the ability to work your way out of a bad situation. Yes there is alcoholism, welfare etc. But here in the US if you get an education and learn how to take care of yourself you can do it. The ones on welfare etc. have refused to take advantage of the opportunities available and wait for others to do for them. Take myself for instance I grew up in a roach infested tenement. Both of my parents worked, but lived from paycheck to paycheck. I learned to live below my means and now have a decent life in nice living quarters (no roaches) and some savings. In some countries I would not have the opportunities that I have here, I would just be living the same life as my parents. What bothers me a lot are people who expect the government to solve their problems instead of doing it themselves. Another thing that anos me are people who come to my country and want to replicate their country here. You are correct that not enough people care. Thanks for another interesting question. Peace, Shalom, Salaam, Pax

paperback writer

Hi 'h',

I think your question is a good one. There is nothing offensive in it whatsoever.

The majority of us who hang out in the Israel forum are of course from democratic countries, so although they are far from perfect, of course we tend to believe that this political system is superior. But there's no need for anyone to be so aggressive in their responses - just ignore them and continue posting your excellent answers and questions!

It is hard for many of us in the Israel forum to be positive about Arab nations, because of course they have always been so against Israel so aggressive towards her. I think this must colour people's responses, inevitably.

But I hope that on an individual level, we can all be polite and respectful to each other here in this forum - and you have been super-supportive of this aim!

So don't get too stressed about any responses that are less than nice; I know they can be upsetting but quite a few of us are getting them!

Those of us that are able to disagree, without resulting to insults and anger, must just carry on talking.

Lost

Everything you said is sooo true. I so need a change.I want
to be where I can actually communicate with people like
me and not being judged.I hear that there are people from all over the world who really enjoy it there.Very peaceful,no tax,healthcare not a problem like here in the USA.

DagNaggit limpuladerfy II

thankk God for democracy!!! or we wouldnt be answering this question! Thank God for America! and hope it stays free! and here I do feel free!
How many alcoholics? How many homeless? How many beggars? How many Americans can not afford any health insurance and will die of that?
sure this is true but its allover the world!

Aussie

Unfortunately a lot of what you say about the western values & lifestyle is true .Our standards have been slipping over a long period of time & the values & morals that were the pillars of our societies have been undermined by the swing to ultra liberal thinking .

This can be linked directly to a swing away from our Christian heritage ....unfortunately , like it or not , we are rapidly becoming pagan nations where anything goes & there are no moral absolutes . We can see the results of that in the areas you have mentioned & others which I consider far more disturbing like abortion.

As a Christian it disgusts me to see just how far we have let our standards slip & it leaves us & our faith open to criticism like yours . The difference between our cultures is that in the west there is a separation of powers ....religion , government & justice ...& hence Christian values which have always been the basis of our system of justice in the past are now open to the whims & fancies of judges with their own agendas.

The other major point of difference is the tolerance that western societies show to those of other faith who come to live here.Muslim people face NO restrictions in Australia.You are free to worship , preach , congregate & are shown respect as people.The only thing we won't tolerate is incitement to hatred but even that was allowed to go on for far too long before the authorities put a stop to it .

Your case would be far more credible if your government & your religious leaders showed the same tolerance & respect for those of other faiths instead of the ridiculous restrictions they place .

Must surely make you wonder what they are fearful of !

MikeInRI

I think when people here are talking about passing on Western values they mean the best of Western Values. Obviously we have many things in the West that aren't ideal.

Good Luck!!!

H, I'm still trying to work out why you would say your points, then post them in this section, its non related?

OK now to address your points, the same way that if some one addressed Muslim Values or Eastern values, in the way you have they would have the answer from me at a point of honesty of facts not from what a Wahaabi imam or salafi piece of literature has told me.

1) Countries will automatically influence each other both internally and externally, people travel, do business; the world is one big multi- national company. Each and everyone believe their ideology system is the right and correct way so we naturally try to influence to our advantage points.

2) There is no transparent Muslim' country so how do we know what the real crime statistics are?

3) Women on welfare, at least the state provides for them and they are not forced to go into prostitution or stay in a relationship with an abuser because society doesn’t accept divorce, single mother hood or a female without a male and children will be seen as easy, in a society restricted by sexual relations until marriage?

4) As for the poor kids, let’s not pretend that there are not babies dumped every day because they are out of wedlock or abortions or quick weddings. Unhappy marriages because of children are always great value?

5) The eastern countries publish far less data when it comes to the transparency of Aids and HIV in fact most countries say it doesn’t exist, work it out, people that pass through such as refugees that have HIV or aids, unprotected sex, I would rather live knowing that it is acknowledged and being dealt with rather than it be a non- issue.

6) You don’t think that there are terrible problems with drugs in the East, of course there is drugs grow in heat! Get real by looking for rehab clinics.

7) healthcare- it’s free in the country, im currently staying in.

8) There are places I wouldn’t go out in the east and the west at night but I have never faced sexually perverts in the west as I have in the east, surely you can’t say that one is incorrect

9) Paying tax gives a sense of an ownership stake in the country. I don’t mind paying the tax; in fact I see it as my job that tax issue is not an east west thing it’s related to the country you are staying in. If I remember correctly only nationals are able to get the free education and expats suffer because the education has to be your way or no way, hence why I hear of different home schooling programmes being closed including those of other expat Muslims.

10) Democracy means the right to participate, the right to freedom of speech, if you think no body cares you have never lived in a western country.

My last word is watch the wahaabi crap that’s in your brain then you spill it out trying to make your views as if they are both Muslim and Eastern, which they are not, they are just narrow. Open your eyes, your ears and you heart. There is not a place on this earth in this life for us that is a jannah, if there was we would all be moving there wouldn’t we!

"Your points are not due to eastern values but due to a barral of oil of $84" (Thanks Z)

samy

u made a few good points but u just made it to the wrong people most people here come to hate not to think or talk rationally i'm sure u noticed this already!!

b52gflyer

Israel is a one of a kind country. It both a democracy and a theocracy. The theocracy dominates. Islamic countries are mostly true theocracies without freedom.

I am a proud American who happens to be Jewish. This does not mean I want to pack up and move to Israel tonight. Yes there are many things wrong with America, but the rights far out number the wrongs.

In cultures where drinking alcohol is illegal the rate of alcoholism is extremely high. Islamic cultures, Native American cultures, even Russia has tried to cure Alcoholism by raising the price and lowering the amount produced.

Yes, America has more people in prison than any other country in the world. Yes, we still have the death penalty. Yes there is high crime bad drug use and all sorts of other problems.

Islamic countries have stricter laws that appear to have never been changed since Mohamed road his horse to heaven from the Temple Mount. You can still get your hand cut off for theft. Girls can be stoned for apparently doing what a man can do. Islamic law is too harsh.

Israeli laws are more open but strongly follow Judaism. These theocratic laws look to me to have been written the same time as Mohamed.

America's Constitution has lasted over 200 years. It is a document that is ever evolving.

Which system is right? I choose America. You choose what is right for you and do not let anyone tell you that you have to change.

ÐÅ MÅN ☺ ☻

wow some great points u have there but unfortunatly many fail to see them, man am i glad im not american

nana

For Michael J & the others who still think that honor killing is something you find in every islamic country, i want to tell you then you 're mistaken or you info is not up-to-date. i'd not deny that it was 'once' there as a penalty for sexual action by un-married woman, BUT believe me that it's not anymore accepted or applied in islamic countries( real ones i mentioned before!) never a woman will be stoned to death applied as a law there. forget about radical ones!(they're few any way) simply muslims did really move long ago& did really change a lot of their laws that they believe they don't suit a sane mind. penalties like honor killing or hand cutt' are never followed since ages in most of the islamic countries.

hamarker

AA - What an excellent answer you get an AAA
Everyone has excellent answers too I agree.

tamarindwalk

I'm a Muslim American and have lived abroad for many years. Going back now annoys me. There is gross prejudice and misunderstanding in America and the values that I was taught there as a kid seem to have been lost somewhere. I thought I would go back to live there, but decided I'm happier in Lebanon or the Philippines - where life is far more relaxed and people are less judgmental.

That said, America isn't the only country with social value issues these days - everyone is stuck with them and everyone is searching for answers. Truly, Western values aren't the only values worth looking at and they should not supplant the traditional values of societies. For example: the attempted imposition of American "democracy" by violent means in Iraq is a disaster. It's as bad as that which it replaced and America needs to take a good look at itself lest it become the monster that was Saddam Hussein.

Everyone has to pitch in to make life better - no matter how insignificant the effort. We all need to put our backs to the grindstone.

WittyWeasel™

Just to add to what the first answerer said, I think each of the questions you posed as criticisms of the U.S. can be applied to ANY Mohammedan state.

Poverty? The States can never come close to the poverty of Islamic countries.

Crime? Look at the article he referred you to.

Women's rights? Don't make me laugh.

The Mohammedan nations are so far behind the educational, technological, scientific, medical etc. achievements that when even the oil-soaked Saudis are ill, they travel to the States for treatment . . .

And the Americans don't stone their little girls to death in public for perceived acts of "dishonor".

And as a side note . . .having lived in Mohammedan countries as well as Israel, I've never heard of or witnessed a MALE being stoned for "dishonoring" his family while they are constantly hitting on foreigners and tourists.

Ultranational

Fine, go ahead. Eventually, you will anger the sharia police, or whatever else militia or terrorist group runs amok in your barely functioning societies, and you have your throat slit or yet better, have acid poured on you, I hear thats a classic in Muslim countries.

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