You all still not letting in the Messianic Jews? They're "fake" Jews, right?

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Yaakov

Many Messianic Jews were born Jewish. That's a matter of genetics and heritage, and nothing they ever believe can change that. They were born Jews and they will die as Jews, no matter what a bunch of self-righteous bigots say about them. Remember that the name Yehudah (Judah in Hebrew) means "praised." Is it praise-worthy or does it glorify your God to treat anyone in that way?

I think it's less than helpful for Christians who were not born Jewish to call themselves Messianic Jews, however almost none of them do so in order to deceive anyone. (As far as I know, I've never even met anyone like that.) They just haven't figured out what else to call themselves. I prefer the term messianic believer or Torah keeper. It's descriptive and avoids potential misunderstandings.

-yk

Davey Boy Smith #1 Fan- VACATION

The Messianic movement has about 20% Jews the rest of them 80% are christians who lie and claim to be Jewish.

If it were 1942 they would NOT have been gassed alongside our people because they would not have claimed to be Jews back then. They only claim to be Jews now and yet don't show respect towards the Jewish community and are trying to convert us to christianity by pretending to be Jews.

If they were Jews they would leave us alone and accept that we don't believe in Jesus.

To your last question:
So you're born a Jew, a congenital condition, and yet you lose it by converting?

NO, but again, 80% of the messianic are not even born Jewish and deceitfully lie and claim to be Jewish when indeed they are christians.

The 20% who are Jewish by birth are considered apostate Jews. They are still Jewish by birth of mother and that will never change. They can always come back to the religion of Judaism without the need of converting. They are Jewish not "Gerim" meaning "Converts"

Messianic Jews are not Jews in any way. They are simply Christians that lie and add "Jew" to their name.

If this was 1942 Warsaw, those Messianic Jews would've called themselves Christians until it was all over.

Nobody hates Jesus or Christians, they are just wrong.

Amy W

I wouldn't call them "fake Jews", I'd call them "Christians".

I have nothing against Christians who call themselves that. What I dislike is Christians who parade as Jews in an attempt to convert Jews.

Mr. X

there's no such thing as a messianic jew. it's called a christian.

EU Citizen

Let me guess your a christian right?

Well the fact is the title messianic jews is just a title to ease the conversion proceess to christianity for jewish people.

Wether a jew is secular is not of concern they are still a jew, but the title "Messianic jew" is a paradox because Judaism doesnt see jesus as the son of god or the messiah, obviously if you look at the prequisities for the messiah then you will see that jesus is not one.

Im not jewish in anyway but im disgusted by messianic jews and jews for jesus, cmon what a desperate rant you have there.

anon

Here's the big problem regarding messianic jews: They are NOT Jews! To be Jewish and believe that Jesus was the son of G'd is a contradiction in terms. The two are mutually exclusive. According to Jewish thought you can only believe one or the other.

As to who is allowed to immigrate to Israel, well, that's just their politics. I'm Jewish, my wife is a convert. But since my wife did not go through an Orthodox rabbi for her conversion, she will never be allowed to live in Israel.

So why do Jews so often hate Messianic Jews? Simple: Messianic "Jews" do not edvertise the fact that they believe in Jesus. They try to entice Jews with less than perfect knowledge of Judaism to start attending their services. The way they see it, having regular Jews (even unknowledgeable ones) attending services gives their congregation (not it's not a Temple!) some legitimacy in calling itself Jewish. This is subversive behavior. Try to get someone to change their view through deceit.

The numbers of Jewish families that attend religious services and keep to Jewish family traditions is dwindling fast enough on its own, without help from subversive sects.

Clear enough?

Super Jew

That's not exactly right. Not all Messianics are fake Jews (some are) - but they ALL practice fake Judaism. Some of them are real Jews who practice Christianity and call it Judaism. The rest are Christians who practice Christianity but for some reason want to be able to call themselves Jews, so they sprinkle their speech with Yiddish expressions, they wear a skullcap and prayer shawl to church, they call their church a synagogue, they call their pastor a rabbi, and they read the Gospels from a scroll onto which they translated them into Hebrew (not their original language). But this superficial gloss does not make Christianity into Judaism, and it doesn't make Gentiles into Jews. A Gentile CAN become a Jew (I know plenty of Jews-by-choice who are all highly respected members of their communities), but it takes a little more than a yarmulke and a tolerance for gefilte fish. And if your crack about "'real' Jews" is insinuating that it's unfair that Jews are simply born Jews, well, like I said, any of these Jewish wannabes could convert to Judaism (there's a heck of a lot more than Jesus distinguishing "Judaism" from "Messianic Judaism") and BE Jews.

So if you want to be eligible for gassing, be my guest, Miss Big Shot. But we "real" (I feel like I should put the quotation marks in quotation marks) Jews (even the secular ones, as history has shown) don't have much of a choice, now do we? Now, to answer your question, which doesn't really sound like a question but needs to be answered anyway:

Those of us who dislike them (the messianics - as if Judaism is somehow "non-messianic") don't feel the way we do because we're against Christianity, or against people practicing the faith of their choice. Rather, it's the hypocrisy, the deception, the underhandedness of it all that really ticks us off. "Messianic Judaism" is a branch of Evangelical Protestant Christianity, designed specifically to attract Jews by convincing them that they aren't abandoning their heritage by converting (with such repugnant and awkward slogans as "Jesus made me kosher"). Anybody who tells you otherwise is either lying, or doesn't have the slightest clue what they are talking about. But let me be unequivocally clear: A Jew who goes "Messianic" is abandoning Judaism, period. He or she is still a Jew (even the most stringent orthodox Jew will tell you this), but he or she is no longer practicing Judaism, and as a Jew, is morally obligated to return to the proper path, as laid out by G-d in His Torah. Jews practicing Christianity doesn't make Christianity Jewish. The fact that Jews FOUNDED Christianity doesn't make Christianity Jewish, any more than a Jew committing murder would make murder Jewish. An extreme example, I know, and I don't mean to equate Christianity with murder (although it has inspired the murder of millions of Jews throughout history), but I'm just trying to drive the point home here. Most of us don't really feel strongly either way about Jesus...it's more like: "Jesus, please, save me from your followers!!"

Personally, I'm a big believer in the concept of the open marketplace. And just as an open market for goods and services benefits everyone, so too we stand to benefit from an open market of beliefs and ideas. Everyone should be free to try to sell his ideas to potential "customers," as his or her conscience dictates. But if, as a follower of Jesus, you believe that your product (Christianity) is the best on the market, why do you feel the need to repackage it and call it Judaism? That's called false advertising, and it's a good way to get sued (insert your own joke here). Not only that, but you're really insulting Judaism and Christianity at the same time by doing so. You can call Jesus "Yeshua" and you can call the cross a "tree," but all you're doing is lying to the guy you're trying to convert, and ultimately, to yourself.

And by the way, in the free world, we ARE entitled to follow any religion we choose. I'm going to assume "aren't" is a typo, or else you meant something other than "entitled." Maybe use a dictionary next time.

On a more theoretical level, I find the whole phenomenon of Christians wanting to be Jews rather fascinating. Do they long for the martyrdom (martyr-dumb?) of being loathed by the rest of the world? Of possibly being killed for their beliefs? Is the idea of people spitting when they utter the name of your religion, of being synonymous in people's minds with evil incarnate, is all of that really so appealing? Or, are they seeking something to fill a spiritual gap left in their lives because their faith doesn't give them anything specific to do other than to be baptized, believe and behave, as where we Jews have more mitzvos than we know what to do with? Perhaps the Messianic "Jew" is a modern incarnation of Nietzsche's camel, prepared, anxious even, for the heaviest possible load? Or does it all boil down to simple jealousy? Well, as far as I'm concerned, if you people want so badly to be "chosen," you can have it! Screw it, I and the rest of the Jews are taking a vacation! I hereby deputize you and dub you "chosen," with all the rights, privileges (including 10% off at any deli), joy, sorrow, responsibility (613 commandments to start - and you can't go about any of them half-a$$ed, either), terror, paranoia, and contempt commensurate with that status. Go ahead, kiddo, knock yourself out.

For more on REAL Judaism, and the Jewish response to "Messianic Judaism," check out the following:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
http://www.messiahtruth.com
http://www.simpletoremember.com

I hope this makes everything clear, and that my satirical tendencies (can't help it - I'm Jewish) didn't confuse the issue for you. If you have any non-rhetorical questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

EDIT TO TABATHA

You're sweet. Thanks. (:

× Ö¸×˜Ö¸×œÖ´×™

Jews are the only ones that let anyone believe what they want!

EDIT: If you are Jewish you can never undo it even if you "convert".

Proud Grandma

That is right! They are fake! I have a Messianic neighbor who pretends to be Jewish but is very Prodistant and knows nothing about Judaism. At first I thought they were Jewish but after they started talking to me and telling me that I was gonna burn in hell for eternity along with all the people in my Synagogue if I didn't stop going there. I realize they are not Jewish, they are christians.

They claim that they discovered they were Jewish and their last name was Jewish because it ends with "ez" when they joined the messianic church and now they are Jewish. Godinez doesn't sound Jewish to me.

I am sure they have tricked a few Jews into joining but it doesn't make it Jewish. It is still a christian church.

Mark S, JPAA

You're right. They ARE fake Jews.

This is taken from the reference section of this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

1. â€œ"We believe that Jewishness is a birthright. It is inherited from our parents. Our people are not of one culture; we have diverse cultural expressions (Ashkenazi/Sephardi, Georgian/Russian, Ethiopian, Persian, etc.). Our people are not of one religion. While Judaism might be the traditional religion for many Jewish people, Jews are still considered Jewish even though they might be atheists or even if they embrace other beliefs. Those who say that Jews who believe in Jesus are errant Jews or misguided Jews are entitled to their opinions. But they are not entitled to negate our Jewishness. We are Jews by birth and that cannot change."
2. "There is virtual unanimity across all denominations [of Judaism] that Jews for Jesus are not Jewish." (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 139-140).
3. "For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness. Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews". (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, p. 9).
4. Jewish groups:
o "To make the record clear, Jews for Jesus is a Christian missionary organization â€“ period." Jews for Jesus: Jewish or Christian? You Decide, Jews for Judaism website, retrieved September 11, 2006.
o "Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448).

paperback writer

Let me put it like this:

Can a person be a Christian if they deny Jesus?

If they worshipped, for an example, Allah, or Buddha?

If they called themselves Christian, yet then denied the core tenets of Christianity?

No?

Same applies to Judaism.

If someone is Jewish, they don't believe that Jesus was the messiah. It's as simple as that.

I don't think any Christian would be happy if groups of people started Churches, worked hard to attract many new members, and then claimed to be teaching Christianity when in fact, the beliefs they were spreading went AGAINST the Christian faith!

Yet you expect Jews to go along with it?

Well, tough! Because we don't!

EDIT TO SUPERJEW

Love, love love your answer! Very witty, insightful and in general, just great!

EDIT TO FAITH B

Mazeltov for managing to TOTALLY miss the point of my remarks.

And perhaps next time, you might try actually addressing the question, rather than just repeating what a previous answerer - in this came, me - has said.

LadySuri

Because Messianics are simply not Jews. There is no such thing as an Xian Jew. It's an oxymoron.

Faith B

"Let me put it like this:

Can a person be a Christian if they deny Jesus?

If they worshipped, for an example, Allah, or Buddha?

If they called themselves Christian, yet then denied the core tenets of Christianity?

No?

Same applies to Judaism.

If someone is Jewish, they don't believe that Jesus was the messiah. It's as simple as that. "

If that is so then secular and athiest Jews are not Jews either.

MikeInRI

It is real simple if you accept that Jesus is the messiah you are not a Jew. Therefore anyone calling themselves a "Messianic Jew" or a "Jew for Jesus" is not a Jew. These people choose to live a life of deceit rather than the spiritual life that they claim. They are not Jews so to call them "fake Jews" is wrong because simply put they are not Jews. It would be more accurate to call them wannabe Jews.

Your idea of saying Hitler would have put them to death is meaningless as well. Hitler put to death Jews, Gypsies, political prisoners, and many others who in many cases thought of these people (ex: homosexual) would be seen as the Third Reich as being degenerates. The Nazis might have put "messianic jews" to death (we will never know this really though) not because the Nazi Party would have seen these people as being Jews - but because they were acting in a degenerate manner that was unacceptable to National Socialism. Remember many Christian religious leaders were also placed in concentration camps and the "messianic jews" could have been executed as Christians which is what they actually are.

Good Luck!!! with your delusions of Jewishness.

onlyhuman

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp?gclid=CJWVj42KoI8CFRcbWAodWE2BeQ

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

vvhiitefang

would you stop beating a dead horse already?????

arikinder

You are absolutely correct. Hitler murdered Jews no mater what they happened to believe. Its sad that within modern Judaism, anything goes except belief in Yeshua. I wish I could give you a reason but I can't. If I were to speculate I would say that its because alot of so-called Christians forced Jews to convert under threat of death and that has created an aversion to anything that is perceived as Christian.

skyangel

no they are real jews and some of the jews killed Jesus Christ and that sucks. but jesus already forgave them of their sins.

grammadebbie50

Messianic Jews are not "Fake" Jews. They are still Jews who believe their messiah has come in the form of Jesus who himself was a Jew.

They continue to practice Torah and the NT is simply an extension of their faith.
The early church was made up of Jews who followed Christ.
According the Law of return--the criteria of being a Jew was being born to a Jewish mother. The orthodox Jews want to eliminate messianics from this truth suggesting they have lost their status as a Jew.
But they are still Jews.

Then the age old debate of "what makes a jew", is it a religion or a genetic/ethnic nationality rages to this day.
The reason Christianity evokes such negative emotions goes back to the first pogram. It was often the so called Christians that were putting Jews to death (to me they are the fake Christians) and the Holocaust was yet more proof.

It is not hard to understand the dis-trust Jews have of Christians and especially messianics but there are many messianic churches in Israel and the movement is growing. On paper--Israel is a democratic society where freedom of religion is suppose to be tolerated.

The Christians who call themselves messianic Jews are people who want to get back to the Jewish roots of the early church and have taken the whole thing to far. Messianic they maybe as that simply means follower of the messiah but Jews they are not.

Not all gentiles are Christian--not everyone who calls themselves Christian are Christian (IE: Hitler) but a Jew born of a Jewish mother is a Jew regardless of what they believe.

Side note:
Jews for Jesus is founded and run by messianic Jews--not Christians pretending to be Jews. I have met and had dinner with two of the leaders of Jews for Jesus in Israel.

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