Do you think Greek and Turkish international relations are improving?

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Joannah

Of course there is hope; but understanding Turkish-Greek relations would require an in-depth analysis that should connect the past to the present and the new generation should be aware of this so as to minimize "bumps" into a better future of peace and understanding. Although it is utopic to think that the youth can make a difference. The world is run by older politicians and their belief systems. The ray of hope though, lies in this "new generation" who will hopefully be the politicians of tomorrow for both countries.

Nonetheless, as the past correlates with the future; a brief summation of the evolution in International Relations (for the new generation) would be during the Post Cold War era. I won't go into the cultural aspects of "antagonism" as it might be feasted upon by trolls. So I mention only international relations.

During the post-Cold War, Greek-Turkish relations was restructured as security was the most important goal in a world in constant flux. Cooperation based in mutual trust rather than conflict seemed the most likely option as it was clear that Greco security depended too on Turkey's security.

Turkey's (since the establishment of the Republic) foreign policy has been influenced by the "Sevres Syndrome," which was a sense of being surrounded by enemies whose goal was for the destruction of the Turkish state. This consequently led to feelings of suspicion towards neighboring countries.

Greece on the other hand experienced the same security dilemma as with Turkey. Both states had this "siege mentality" that fueled distrust which in turn affected foreign policymaking in both countries for many years, thus negatively impacting bilateral relations.

The end of the Cold War coupled with the disintegration of Yugoslavia left Turkey and Greece with only two alternatives: Either stay committed to an identity based on a sense of encirclement and try to deal with post-Cold War chaos, or cooperate in the establishment of a security regime not possible without their mutual cooperation. The latter of course would require a change in foreign policymaking in both countries or else, the second option would not be feasible.

Fast forwarding to 1999, the Marmara region of Turkey was hit by an earthquake that killed thousands of people. Rush of humanitarian aid flowed from all over the world. Greece was among the first countries to dispatch rescue teams. On the same year, 1999, Greece also had an earthquake, and Turkey was among the first countries send rescue teams and condolences. These two countries, once deemed "historical enemies" and who almost came to brinkmanship in the 1996 Imia-Kardak began the unexpected process of improving relations.

One of the key points about the Greco -Turkish reconcilliation has been that it was a product of "civic/people's diplomacy," or " earthquake diplomacy" after the disasters that befell both countries. In this view, the peoples of both countries showed their preference for friendship and peace, and the political leaders just followed the "public's wish" in their diplomatic initiatives that picked up the pace post-quake period.

Getting back to the question, Since better relationships will be of mutual benefitciary for both what then are the preconditions in order to achieve this? Here I touch briefly on Culture since we are now dealing with "Civic Diplomacy" and a little bit of history.

Turkey and Greece should readily change their beliefs and thus political actions as a whole even if this contradicts with earlier actions and political traditions. To make this possible, at first, Greeks should extricate themselves from the Turkish 'obsession' as a military might but belligerent neighbor. The Ottoman Empire as expansionist as it was, was no different than all the other Empires who had controlled Europe, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East. Conquest for Ex-empires at that time long ago was a necessity simply because they were originally organized for conquest, Their economies were dependent on land, manpower (including military purposes) and all kinds of resources gathered from the conquered lands. Moreover, although present day Turks are the heirs of the Ottoman Empire, they are not the unique one since the Ottoman Empire was a "cosmopolitan" Empire which included many ethnic groups in its sphere of influence. THUS, the Turks cannot be solely blamed for all the actions that was done against Greeks in the past.

In addition, in the most important cause of antagonism between two nations, was the Turkish intervention in Cyprus, which personally was an event that is open to a myriad of interpretations with several justifications that cannot be considered as "empirical" evidence for Turkish aggressiveness.

Therefore, Greeks should abolish the perception that Turks has this inherent expansionist side in them if one wants the relationship to prosper. This is evident in the modern Turkish Republic founded in 1923 which exhibits a strong secularist and democratic tradition as its legacy. Founded by Mustafa Kemal "Ataturk" who envisioned the concept of 'peace at home, and thus peace in the world'.

Greece should also give respect to Turkish influence in some Central Asian Republics along the role it plays between the East and the West. Where Turkey's geo-political location, cultural, religious, and historical bonds are in tandem with those regions. Similarly, Turkey in turn should respect the role Greece assumes in the Balkans as the most prosperous Orthodox nation. Not discounting the fact that in rich Western countries, both Turkish and Greek minorities are one of the most prosperous in those nations' populace.

Also,both states have this distinctive history & culture that should not be taken in as a clash of interests but a common ground for mutual understanding, and norms for better relationships.

A very important point is the renouncement of one's state of international relations in order to gain domestic popularity as I said earlier, it is the politicians who move the world. Neither Greece nor Turkey should be emboldened to use the Turkish-Greek hostility as a platform for an election campaign. Political redundancy concerning chronological issues should be set aside. An example of which could be the argument as to whether the extension of territorial boundaries (nautical & aerial) in the Aegean Sea would give Greece an economic and political advantage? Conversely,what loss would Turkey feel concerning 'sensitive' issues namely Cyprus vis-a-vis the Aegean Sea? A meeting of political minds with peace and cooperation on the table is necessary common ground at which both sides should be open-minded and set aside their own interpretation of history and policies as well as their self-interests for things to move forward.

Hopefully, the new generation of politicians will rise up to the challenge. Only when these conditions are met will there be a brighter future for both countries.

Antonio

no and they will never be

Frank B

I don't see why specifically Turks and Greeks should become friends. I also don't see the reason why so many try to desperately prove or disprove Greeks and Turks are friends.

Why couldn't be that Greeks and Turks stay flat? Neither friends nor enemies.

Many would be perfectly fine with that.

riderpops

Prejudice is a very deep seated issue. All it takes is a great leader to move a nation away from it, or a monster to refuel the flames. Ultimately, if each person reached out to others as brothers and sisters, we could bury this concept.

it'sme

Look, i'love to see become more friendly the problem is that by the time Greece got in European Union became -had no choice- more "cold" in my opinion. Imagine France,Spain,Portugal. They had many wars in the past too (remember Asterix & Obelix lol) They were all from the same genes in a way but now they are 3 countries now with different politics (Spain has king,right? France has democraty). Or Germany & G.Britain (anglosaxon). Or haven't you heard the word " Scandinavians" It refers to Finland, Denmark, Sweden & Norway. 4 different countries but same people! Greece, Turkey, Bulgary and some more are suposed to be the Balcanian People. That means we definitely have similarities (body, face characteristics, hair type, way of thinking, height, weight, body fat mass, body muscle mass etc lol) I didn't say we are so much alike no. But we do come from the same genes. Genes can change with time passing. But still this doesn't change who we are.
What am I trying to say? Already each country of Europe has become a station, road if you like for strangers & refugees. Ex. In Greece we have: Russians, Albanians, Balkanians in general, Chinese, Black, and many more i can't remember lol. France has Black, Maroquians,more certainly people from Africa, from switzerland, greece (..) and it goes like that ! This is not bad! Europe becomes slowly the center of the world, the road-if you like- among America , Africa ,Asia & Russia. We collaborate with more people, we are friendly with more people=>that means we
are trying to erase the word "war" from our dictionary.
But still we are Greeks You are Dutch, French, Turkish, Swedish etc. I repeat however close we can get this cannot change. Because if it would it'd be too tiring and we'd start up wars again!. After so many wars we finally realised that human beings like to be alone(? i know weird..) When i say alone i mean they tend to live inside similarities. They feel more safe in that way. Look in Norway: all the people are blonde naturally. When they see a black-haired India girl, it's something different so it might be sexy or scary. It's stupid thinking but anyway we are all mortal..I can clerly see in Greece the everyday problem with Albanian people. We hhhhhate them! And I hate to say that because I admire them in a way. We talk so bad about them all the time we give them the most unwanted jobs for 4 euros and we are jealous of them? They are fighting so much to raise their children with money tthey don't even have. Like Russians, they left their real homes to find a safer place and live in peace. They didn't leave war to create another war(!) Is it possible for them to "steal" Greece? How can they do that? They are 2, we are 122! i think it's our fault many times. We react so badly because we have this" I-LOVE-my-mine-and-only-all-the-others-g... thing. Emmm...In old times before Greek + Turkish War, Greeks -they say- were more than Turks in their own country. In many books you can read refugee's sayings: Some Greek people were more talented in works than Turkish the same. So, it was normal for them to feel unconfortable. If Greeks had that much power desire Turkey might have been "Greece" today. But they were feeling like home there. They wouldn't do something like that because they already had 1 Greece they wouldn't need second!!! We weren't that bad back then. The system made us cold as i said. Specially the war with Turks tight up our hands and threw us on the sea..People change in addiction of circumstances.
Greece & Turkey have peace each for each own country today(and again this is not 100%) I don't know if this could be the same if we were more mixed up. I'll say the child example again. Imagine a little boy playing with his Brand New toys, feeling so happy like he never was before and suddenly he brokes a vase. His mom hits his hand shouting because the vase belonged to her and now it belongs to anybody.
Child is greece toys are new places,new life. The vase is the "difference". This boy will not touch any vase again.
It's nearly impossible for us to have the same things with our neighbors after all what happened. Can we live both in one country now?
I guess it's in Human nature it's like we don't like to be alone but we don't want company either...we are so brat kids..
We definitelly can be friendly!!! But, unfortunatelly we can't be exactly like in the past. In the old times we had 1)Turkey, 2) Greece & 3) Turkeygreece (=Istanbul, Smyrne etc)
Now we have only 2. And we are still fighting somehow(!)Could we make them 3 again? I might like it to be but the 80% of Turks & Greeks would CRUCIFY me for that..
So i have only one choice. to hope for a "better" future in whatever way it can be:

I'd wish God for the future:
Greece-Turkey-Italy-Germany-Albania-Pola... etc connected. Self-belief no fear. People to have read history so they can correct future mistakes. A Danish person saying to another: Hey i'm going to Austria for weekend are you coming?" and to feel like going to the near village. A place you know or the place knows you. No more refugees. We are all the same. Austria doesn't belong to you or anyone Austria belongs to itself and only. Once some people sacrificed their lifes to create it. now it's open for everyone. You can see You can't "have". it's free. Because you are Danish and your ethnicity is Danish inside you even Denmark will NOT belong to anyone either. All Europe is open. It's yourse but it doesn't BELONG to you like it is a pair of shocks. It's everyone's. You have your job, money & familly and you feel safe by yourself not by the country BORDERS

P.S. i mean Greek & Turkish international relations are going to be much improved just because we'll all have self-confidence that's what KEPT US APART ALL THESE YEARS..

P.S.2 sorry if my english doesn't make sence in some parts. I'm trying to describe the facts as much clear as i can.

єуℓüℓ

well we cannot make both nations adore each other but of course we can be friends and we are. i think we should not repeat the past but learn from it. yes we do have many common things but this is not the main reason. if you like a person then you become friends.

papars

If World War-II arch enemies UK and Germany can be friends and part of the European Union....what stops Turkey and Greece from bieng friends as well? Its only a matter of time till we see borders between Turkey and Greece dissolve.

cpinatsi

The Turkish-Greek relations have 2 levels: personal, as between the people, and political, between governments etc. As people, we have no problem, so it is normal that our relations are good. But in politics, there are still many differences, on which there is little progress.

Tanju

Kalimera,

Definitely agree ..
We did first step.
My friend whose name is Irmak, established Turkey-Greece Peace Organization (Yahoo Group) ...

I believe, we will solve all problems with speaking not fighting ...

Xeristismate apo Istanbul

****
Dear Alana,
I did not write link, because Irmak wrote it.
So no need twice,
Right ?

Zoi ((Ζωή))

You are right.
So much talking about what once happened, whereas we should think of what is going to happen in the present and future.
It is true though that it is mostly a politician matter.

dvatwork

Well, I suppose it depends on the Greek and Turk involved ....... going to Greece this summer I sat next to a man on the plane who started a conversation with me. As soon as he found out I was Greek, the conversation stopped. He traveled the next 8 hours in silence. Does this show peace and understanding?????

Trotsky vs Kerensky- НекIо!

How would I be affected if we are friends, foes or lovers; I don't think about Greece 24/7 so as an answer to your question I couldn't care less. Peace, peace, peace...I didn't know we were in a war with Greece.

sick of it

I think the relations are bad because of the greek nationalism (and the nationalism of the balkans) that divided the good, peaceful and fair Ottoman empire.
All the greek friends who feel sorry for what they did to us when the nationalist Venizelos invaded in Macedonia and Anatolia must help us now join the european union because turkish language is the mother of all european languages and turkish people are very good and european.

Mehmet K

As people, Turks has no problem with greeks (everybody can easly see good relation between Turks and greeks in North mediterrean sea.) but Greek Politicians not acting in parellel with good neighboorship dictates..

Such as cooperating with illegal terrorist organization PKK is one of them...

PKK’s COPERATION WITH The GREEKS

A possible withdrawal of Turkish troops from northern Cyprus will not only facilitate the goals of imperialist Western nations, but it will also jeopardize the future of our kinsmen and strengthen PKK terrorists on the island.

European Union is a union that always gives importance to human rights. But ironically, one of two EU member states, Greek Cyprus, is basically founded by so-called leaders with acknowledged backgrounds in terrorism. The other one is Greece, whose spoiled acts and support of terrorism ironically do not disturb the so-called Western civilization either. This is the Greece that surpassed European states in practicing double-standards, injustice and atrocities by prohibiting our kinsmen living in Western Trace to be called ‘Turk' and establishing their own associations under the name ‘Turk' in spite of the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), and appointing Muftis (religious leaders) from Athens forcibly and not letting the Turks to choose their own Muftis.

Our relations with Greeks and Greek Cypriots, who are protected by hypocritical West, are managed despite their hostile efforts to collaborate with the Armenians to spread libelous and false news and engage in defamation campaigns.

Hypocritical Western world cannot answer this issue, which best exemplifies its injustices: “Why could Czech and Slovak communities, which are very similar in terms of ethnicity, religion, language, history and culture, secede from Czechoslovakia in one night and this was welcomed. Or why Yugoslavia was allowed to split into seven peoples and seven republics, while two hostile societies [in Cyprus], which do not have any relations and do not have any common aspects in terms of ethnicity, religion, culture and history, are tried to be hold together forcibly?”

What are the goals of Western nations in this compulsion? Hypocritical Western states have to explain why they disregard the support of Greece and Greek Cyprus for terrorism, while they always express their disapproval of terrorism.

As a matter of fact, it would be naïve to expect those, mostly NATO member EU nations, which support the terrorism of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) militarily, politically and economically in various degrees, to condemn Greece and Greek Cyprus about such support.

GREECE's SUPPORT for the PKK:

It is obvious that the PKK is supported by Greece, considering the PKK's historical development with major support from Greece. Greece has always intended to damage Turkey in every way and seize a portion of our land as a part of its ‘great idea', “Megali Idea”.

To this end, Greece initially helped the establishment and assistance of ASALA, the Armenian Terror Organization, with the agony she experienced after our 1974 Peace Operation in Cyprus. Following our state's strike against ASALA, Greece changed her tactics and started to play its cards on Kurds.

In this context, first it initiated the “Lavrion Camp” near Athens. Ayfer Kaya with the code name Rozarin, who was responsible for military training at the Lavrion Refugee Camp that was once used to treat foreign refugees, told in an interview with the Time Magazine that Kurdish young men coming to the camp receive military training under the auspices of Greek officers. They are then they sent to Turkey for terrorist activities.

It was known that until the 1990s, Lavrion was one of PKK's most important training bases along with Bekaa Valley. Those activities in Lavrion, which is still known to function, are continuing right in front of the secret services of our so-called NATO allies. This point, and the fact that our allies are trying to take advantage of the PKK card for their intentions about Turkey, is more obvious when the origins of the guns captured from the PKK are considered.

It is an acknowledged fact, that Lavrion and the support given to the PKK is a national policy of Greece and it is backed by every Greek government and the deputies of PASOK, DIKKI and the YDP.

Following developments and information about the PKK's active presence in Greece as a result of Greeks' and Greeks Cypriot's vengeance pursuit for their defeat in 1974 are presented in various media agencies:

Stelyos Papathemelis, who was a member of the Greek Parliament, was a PASOK member who nourished and directed ASALA's and PKK's activities against Turkey. In 1978-1979, he joined and represented his party in the conventions organized by ASALA in various European countries, and made speeches such as: “Turks are enemies of all of us. They only understand violence, so their blood has to be shed in order to bring them to their knees.” During his two terms of Public Order Ministry in the PASOK government, Papathemelis supported terrorism against Turkey in Greek Cyprus. In October 29, 1994, while Turks in northern Cyprus were celebrating their “Republic Day Festival”, Public Order Minister of Greece came to the island and participated in a convention in Lefkosa (Nicosia). In the convention, he got together with representatives of the PKK, ASALA and a Greek terrorist organization functioning in Cyprus under the name of “Committee of Solidarity with Kurdistan”. In the convention, the future terrorist activities in Turkey for the year 1995 were discussed and decisions were made.

Another person who was helping the terrorist activities of the PKK was a PASOK politician Panayotis Sguridis, who was the vice president for the president of the Greek Parliament, Apostolos Kaklamanis. He was a fan of terrorist chief Abdullah Öcalan, who killed 35,000 innocent people. Sguridis paid countless visits to PKK camps in Syria and Lebanon and met Öcalan there.

Among the other Greek politicians who supported the PKK terrorist organization, were PASOK deputy Dimitrios Vunatsos, Greek Parliament President Apostos Kaklamanis, ex-Minister of Education Dimitrios Arsenis, ex-Minister of National Defense Tsohazopoulos, ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs Pangalos. During the first term of the Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou, PKK's activities in Greece, which used to be an important educational and logistical base for the PKK, were moved to Greek Cyprus as a result of pressure from Turkey and reactions from the world. As Greek Cyprus started to reach some of it goals in accessing the EU in the mid-1990s, it got encouraged and intensified the support for the PKK that it once gave to ASALA as a so-called state policy, in accord with hostility toward Turkey and the goal of capturing the whole island to itself.

In this context:

· In 1990, offices of Kurdistan National Liberation Front (ERNK) and Kurdish Democratic People's Unions (YDK) opened in Lefkosa.

· Following this, Kurdistan Culture Association Office was opened in Limassol.

· Trodos, Mashera and Stavrovoru terrorist camps were built in order to train PKK members and send them to Turkey to commit terrorist activities. The camp in Trodos was built on the land that belongs to the Greek National Church.

· Moreover, two offices in Limasol and Lefkosa that belonged directly to PKK were opened with special help from Cypriot Greeks.

· It was confirmed that in the March of 1996 Greek Orthodox Church invited the head terrorist Öcalan to city of Baf (Paphos) and gave him a significant amount of money.

· It was known that in 1990s, the PKK was smuggling arms over Lazkiye Harbor while trafficking drugs to Europe through Greek Cyprus.

· It is was also known that Greek Cyprus was a first stop for the guns that the PKK acquired from several countries. The allegations about transportation of the arms that the PKK purchased from Russia, which included $7 million-worth of guns and 8 SAM-7 ground-to-air anti-aircraft missiles, by a Greek Cypriot flagged ship called Nissos to Greek Cyprus and then to the PKK over Syria exemplify this point.

· There are more allegations that Greek Cyprus carried out those activities more secretly after its accession to the EU.

· It is known that in the early 2000s, about 500 PKK militants took shelter in Greek Cyprus and took payment from the Greek Cypriots under the name of social assistance.

· It is known that institutes and terrorists of PKK extensions received support from European and Greek Non-governmental Organizations (NGO) and in addition to this, the Greek Administration supported those extensions in terms of material and political assistance.

· In line with Greek Cypriot National Policy, the Democratic Center Union Party's (EDEK) and Greek Communist Party's (AKEL) common policy was that “Turkey is the common enemy of the Kurds and Greeks” and therefore the PKK should be supported in every way. This particular point shapes the Greek-PKK relations.

· It is known that wounded PKK terrorists in our southern borders were most of the times treated in Greek Cypriot hospitals.

· The most solid example of Greek's hostile policies against Turkey is the fact that when terrorist Abdullah Öcalan was apprehended in Kenya on February 16, 1999, he had a Greek Cypriot passport arranged in the name of Lazaros Mavros, who was a columnist in the Fileleftheros Newspaper, published in Greek Cyprus, and the head terrorist is taken from the Embassy of Greece in Kenya.

· It is rather meaningful that right after this incident, Representatives House of the Greek Cyprus has taken decisions that condemned the arrest of the head terrorist and declared the continuation for the support given to the PKK.

It is obvious that enemies of Turks, who clearly have common goals about Turkey, are going to take advantage of Greek Cyprus, which is in a strategically important location because of its proximity to Turkey, Syria and the Middle East. This is important because as the PKK cannot continue its activities in Syria and Lebanon freely it will use the island as a base thanks to special efforts and support from the Greeks.

ESCALATION of PKK ACTIVITIES in KKTC (Turkish Cyprus)

It is especially attention attracting that since the gates opened in Cyprus on April 23, 2003, Greek agents and PKK elements, who can freely enter northern Cyprus, increased their terrorism serving activities in northern Cyprus. It is also striking that PKK-related associations and institutes in Greek Cyprus have increased their propaganda aimed for Kurdish-descendant students and citizens in northern Cyprus and have started to provide those students with financial assistance. The PKK militants among the Kurdish construction workers on both sides of the island have intensified PKK propaganda and recruitment efforts under the Greek Administration' s watch and support, facilitated by the free passage through the borders and the present indifferent policies of the northern Cyprus administration. Another important point is that all anti-Turkish activities in the world are controlled and directed from Greece, and PKK militants take their orders from their so-called commanders in Greece.

Efforts for the withdrawal of the Turkish troops from the island

The common and most important aim of PKK militants and some similar groups in northern Cyprus and Greek Cypriots as well is the ‘withdrawal of the Turkish troops from the island'.

Our kinsmen in Cyprus are intensely propagated, and they are tried to be deceived about this issue by false and very unfair news. However, there is a historical fact that has to be remembered: the massacres Greek Cypriots committed against our kinsmen in 1963 and in 1967, which were performed according to the Akritas Plan. However, the Turkish Armed Forces saved our kinsmen from almost being totally massacred in 1974 after a Greek coup, which was a part of a second plan called Ifestos. Therefore, it is necessary to mention that a possible withdrawal of the Turkish troops from the island will not only facilitate the goals of imperialist Western nations, but it will also jeopardize the future of our kinsmen and will help to strengthen the presence of PKK terrorists on the island.

Irmak

Of corz it can be, must be..We have a common culture and we can't delete this reality because of the past.

Peace and Respect can solve everything.

To answer your question in one word... NO!

TURKEY FOREVER

Of course, they are improving...In fact they are re-improving...

It's in the mutual interest to be united, as did France and Germany. There is no reciprocal need, but the relations will supply advantages to both countries.

Of course, there are still some problems, but those issues will be solved someday...

I'm glad to see many people in Greece who are friendly to us, but I'm really tired to see the hypocrisy of some persons here...And sometimes, they don't even hide their racism, do they, Antonis ?

Realist

I am Greek Armenian both sides loath the Turks.

We got a double genocide in our family that the Turks still till this day have not admitted. We have got hit twice as hard and our relations will never be stable with the turks even if they are actors and musicians working together and what does that have to do with it anything.

Peace can come only when they have embraced the truth.

I am a realist, the truth is peace.

Leonarda

It depends on what we are talking about..In private level, and of course with educated people by both sides,nobody denies a friendship, as far as the political topics dont come up..
But in national level, there are still many problems which seperate both countries, and a bloody past none can forget..
Unfortunately, the feeling of patriotism many times makes us forget personal friendships, since everyone takes his position and defends his country as he ll do in case of a ''hot''event..
Past can not be past,we can just build private relations based on friendship, but this, as far as the national topics are not discussed...

♪♪ vivet ♪♪

No - in politics
No- between people
it is a theater: deep inside, the mentality is not changing

edit:
proof for theater and not changing mentality here: my opinion and IshagT's opinion (bellow) have the same votes....lol

personal and nationalistic selfish way ............ when you hide behind thumbs up/down and become invisible - it does not mean 'let them think we are friends'...........our answers stay here for others to read and are proof that we are not even near to changing anything

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