If i tell you in a "civilized and free country" in Europe, they ask some Turkish people to sign?

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Ipek K

I think I know what you are talking about. If It is about French Government forcing Turkish citizens to sign any type of statement to confirm to the Armenian claims, I wouldn't be surprised at all .

That shows that you are free to think what they want you to think, otherwise you go to jail.. and there are people in the word who thinks we don't have freedom of speech in Turkey and they actually believe that Orhan Pamuk served time in prison for his claims.

I don't know what to say dear, sometimes the level of ignorance in the word surprises me so much that I become speechless.

Well, if that is what is being done in France or any European country, as a matter of fact, our government should stop messing with turban issues or voting for enormous retirement pay checks for Parliementers AND stand up for its citizens who are living and helping the economy alive all over Europe.

On the other hand, the Turkish people who has a living and working permit or citizenships and paying taxes in these countries has to demonstrate their disapproval by legal protests and positive lobbying activities - the one's who keep using the Public Relations terminology "Lobbying" with an offensive and degrading manner, Google it; learning doesn't hurt.-

Kaankaan

Your Question is a bit confusing. As a Turkish person I love to be in this way, I love my culture ,I love my country and I believe most Turkish people loves to be in Turkey.I live in europe and I believe living in Turkey much relax and much comfortable then europe.. P.S to American commenter: Don,t worry abouth Turkish people to move to America you worry abouth the other nations to immigrate to your country and I recommend you to check the Turkish comminty in America and compare them to the others .You change your ming.

Dr. Beemer

This video might help.

İKİ YÜZÜYLE DOĞU PERİNÇEK
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/433286//

He has found that the Armenian Genocide is a very sensitive issue Internationally, so he is using this for his political interests.

The Federal Tribunal ruled that there was an overall consensus that the Armenian Genocide had taken place and that Perincek had not been able to prove the contrary, thus making light of his 200 pounds of anti-Armenian "documents" and dismissing the testimonies of the four so-called scholars who testified on his behalf. The Court also said that Perincek was "motivated by racism and nationalism," and not a desire for "historical debate." In countering Perincek’s argument that not all countries have recognized the Armenian Genocide, the Court stated that even a United Nations resolution condemning the denial of the Jewish Holocaust received only 103 votes out of the 192 member states in January 2007. The Court further declared that the refusal of some countries to acknowledge such genocidal acts for political reasons does not cast doubt on their validity.

It is noteworthy that the Swiss Federal Tribunal stated in its verdict that "the denial of the Genocide constitutes a threat to the identity of the Armenian people." The Court also asserted that Perincek’s conviction "contributes to the protection of the human dignity of the members of the Armenian community who define themselves by the memory of the Genocide of 1915."

Thanks to Perincek and his shortsighted backers in Ankara, Armenians have won a very significant victory. This is the first time that the highest court of any country passes judgment on the Armenian Genocide, thus serving as a precedent for all future court cases on this issue.

Despite his overzealous efforts to counter the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, Perincek and Turkish officials who support him have only managed to undermine Turkey’s massive denialist campaign. Perincek announced last week that he will be appealing his conviction to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Should he go through with that appeal, he would be making an even more substantial contribution to the Armenian Cause, by furthering the legal recognition of the Armenian Genocide through Europe’s highest court of law.

http://doguperincek.spaces.live.com/

keithshearing

I am not sure, this will answer your question.
I am from UK, where we have freedom of speech, however when Tony Blair, wanted to go to war with Iraqi.
People held marches, objected to going to war.
Well people in power, know so much more than the ignorant masses. Regaeds Keith

Totally Blunt

1. Orhan Pamuk didn't go to prison for anything. There are many valuable writers that spent time in prison because they didn't agree with what the current government said, but not Pamuk.

2. Pressure on Turkish origined EU citizen politicians isn't new in Europe. Some are made to agree with the "genocide" claims. One, even when she agreed, were made to resign her post. One in Belgium, who was elected with preferential votes despite his lower place on his party's list, was subjected to pressure from his own party to resign.

It is natural that we have see such "details" better than others, because these are related to Turks. When I discuss with Germans, I see that they arenot aware of the seriousness of the serial arsons in Germany, for example. I'm sure Belgians and the French aren't aware of the dirty games played in European politics.

Bottom line is, European politicians claim they uphold certain universal values, but fall short about their own practices.

Edit: My queen (sorry for the slip :P), that happens when the citizens refuse to see what's wrong with their country. And that is the point when I see how my country is better (at least in some respects) than others. See, when somebody gets killed because of racism, we scream our outrage. As opposed to those who refuse to see the obvious racism in their own countries.

The citizen's most important role is to critisize the wrongdoings of the government, because that keeps the government in check. Just voting is not enough.

Cetin

İstanbullu arkadaş,
double standarts against to Türkiye!

i remember an other example from Germany.
Hakkı keskin :he is a parlementer in Germany and he was forced by their Party to accept pseudo-armenian genocide same as Sırma Oran.
i think , Doğu Perinçek was put in the jail in Switzerland not Uğur Mumcu(Allah rahmet eylesin).
--
For more info.about Doğu Perinçek
1)http://www.ip.org.tr/lib/pages/detay.asp?goster=ssscevap&idsoru=2
2)http://www.talatpasakomitesi.org/

luckyman

you should tear what they give you to sign and throw it on their face.if i was there i d show you how to do it.

anlarm

I had a pretty good guess even before reading Ipek's response. Yes, that would be France, forcing people to agree that there was an Armenian genocide. I wonder when they will force French people to accept that the French army did not kill even one Algerian!!! That is the impudence and hypocrisy of French politics/politicians. But of course France is a civilized country, and they cannot do anything wrong! It's always the Turks who do bad things, not the French lol.

p.s. Are people allowed to talk about the 'Turkish minority' in Greece, or is it officially the 'Muslim minority'? Has it changed after becoming EU members?

cpinatsi

I am against all sorts of deprivation of freedom, and I wish you would say exactly what and where this is happening, but I must specify 1-2 things.
If the Turkish people in question are citizens in this country and they are forced to sign for example that they agree with the country's constitution, it is correct. It would be treason to not support the constitution of the country in which you are a citizen. Or the borders of the country etc. For example, people in a country which is a Republic would be considered traitors or worse if they supported dictators or a king. The same goes for terrorism. You know teh US asks people to sign that they do not support terrorism, so that they can get a visa. Well, although this is rather silly, because a terrorist would not say he is a terrorist, it is not reproachful. Finally, with all due respect, I am sure you know that Turks in Turkey herself are not free to support some ideas that are opposed to the Turkish point of view, and Turkish writers have been persecuted and prosecuted in Turkey for their beliefs. Believe me, I am not saying this to accuse Turkey. I come from the territories of Asia Minor, I work with Byzantine monuments, and I feel connected to Turkey in a deep way, such that makes me want to see Turkey improve in every possible aspect. I believe that the criticism is in this case constructive, and I would struggle more against such phenomena in Turkey if I was Turkish, because I would love my country and I would want to see it improve. In this view I am telling you that Turkey must take care of her own issues with Turkish citizens.

I just saw Ipek's answer, and I have 2 honest questions:
1. Didn't Orhan Pamuk go to jail? Because that is what I knew too.
2. You can't force the French people to believe what you believe, and vice versa. If they want to recognise teh Armenian genocide, it is their prerogative, but I doubt they would make Turks sign that they agree. Is this happening? Or is it just a rumour?

Ok, I just checked the site you said. For politicians, things are rather different than for every citizen. They have to agree with the laws and views of the party and the people they are representing. And as far as I understood, this candidate withdrew from the elections herself because she had a conflict with someone in her political party, this is different than makin all Turks who live somewhere sign that they agree with this or that! Suppose a politician in Greece says he believes that the former king must come back to power! Any political party will send him home! However, it is not illegal for a citizen to say so, unless he does a coup to bring him back, of course. And as you saw, this mayor denies he forced her, so this is even not an official approach! MAybe he did, maybe he didn't , but at least they know it would be wrong and they deny doing it! So basically why doesn't she go back to her candidature, and simply say "well, if you deny forcing me to sign, so I don't sign but keep my place"? I have lost the context a bit.
Regarding Orhan Pamuk, a court is of course better than a jail, but still prosecution for your ideas is wrong. There was the possibility that he would be found guilty? So it was up to the judges? It's wrong. It's not the same, but do you remember the Nigerian woman who went to court and would be stoned to death if found guilty of adultery, because she was raped? She was found not guilty, luckily, but she shouldn't have been in trial at all!

My dear, in Greece people say Greece sucks all the time, including us Greeks, actually, but no one is accused for that! But anyway, my point is that no one is perfect, Switzerland is a very strange country, can you imagine that women got the right to vote there quite recently I think, in my lifetime! The point is, that we must all try to improve all these things, in other countries and our own country. I repeat, I don't mean nay insult to you, I am more interested in Turkey correcting everything that is wrong there than in Switzerland or France correcting themselves, because I want Turkey to be able to join the EU and build a better relation with Greece. And do you know why, deep deep down? Because I would like to work in restoration of Byzantine monuments in Turkey one day! You see, it's all about myself, I am an egoist Leo!

ՎԱՀԷ

I guess you are talking about France.
If there are laws there that make it a crime to deny the realities, its much more better than laws which don't let to disagree with the "denial of realties".
Yes, I think one shouldn't be prosecuted for thoughts, but does it mean one should say whatever wants, acts however wishes and be permitted to spread false thoughts in the name of democracy?
There is limit for everything.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean being indifference. There should be difference between 0 and 1, shouldn't be?
You brought it with example of Genocide issue (which is a very sensitive issue), but I think it's very general, take most simple things as examples.
Your idea that freedom should be boundless, is not possible on Earth. Maybe it's very good but not really practical.

Bix

I don't understand your question. Would you please ask it again.

Edit:

Dogu Perinçek was never put in jail in Switzerland. He got a fine of CHF 3000 and a so called 'money payment punishment' (which is not a fine) on probation of CHF 9000 (on probation means that he has to pay this sum only if he does it again and this won't happen because I doubt that he will ever get a visa for Switzerland again). CHF 3000 is about YTL 3000.

After the affirmation of the punishment by the Federal Court of Switzerland, Mr. Perinçek sued Switzerland at the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR).

The reason why he made a speech denying the 'Armenian Genocide' in Switzerland was actually because he always wanted a decision of ECtHR in order to make this legislation of Switzerland ineffective.

He thinks that if he wins he does not only make the legislation of Switzerland about this subject ineffective. In his opinion he can prove by winning this trial that the 'Armenian Genocide' is a lie.

However, even if the ECtHR decides in favor of Mr. Perinçek the subject of this trial is only if Switzerland has violated the European Convention of Human Rights or not.

IMHO Dogu Perinçek thinks that he can't lose his case because with both judgments (win or lose) he will show himself as a hero.

If he wins he can say: 'You see, I was right! There is no such thing called 'Armenian Genocide''

If he loses he can say: 'You see, I was right! The best friend of a Turk is only a Turk. And those Europeans (because it's the ECtHR) are the enemies of the Turks!'

IMHO Dogu Perinçek is a very dangerous person and he doesn't do any good service to his country. Besides that, I can never forgive this opportunist who visited Apo in the mountains and shook his hands. Dogu Perinçek should not dictate the future of Turkey!

Curt

I'm from America but, we have the same problem here. If your Turkish, why aren't you living in Turkey? You've probably moved from Turkey to whatever European country you're in now because you want a better life. That's fair.

HOWEVER, and this is a BIG HOWEVER, you are searching for that better life in a different culture. DO NOT bring your Turkish culture with you because it obviously doesn't work in Turkey. Fully adopt and sign and agreement to adopt the culture of the country in which you now live.

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