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soubassakis
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Hello dear!
Thank you for the question and the time to understand the politics in the Hellenic Peninsula, now called by the Turkish name Balkans! It is hard to understand the politics, since it is a part of the Middle Easter Question, which has started before even the Slavs came here! The Crusades wanted and succeeded to dismantle the Roman Empire, by destroying the Hellenic Peninsula. This happen, after the "Romans" had killed millions of inhabitants just because they were Greek!
Then, they brought in the Slavs! They took the lands and properties of the Greeks and passed them to feoudarchs who subsequently left or claim they became "indigenous"!
Among the lees powerful and poorest were the ones living in the middle of the Hellenic Peninsula. They never had country neither identity!
Since everyone was against them, the Greeks and Greece was the only supporting them during their initial years, when thousands would had dye if there was no assistance from them!
Greece, since they have suffered a lot, they understand the pain and problems of those people and continuously assist them on all levels!
Again thank you for your interest in our region!
Mainly people are coming to steal, or to kill here! You are a nice person!
The only sin is to abstain education and you are not a sinner! |
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svensktjej
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I don't think they hate FYROM, they just don't want any foreign country to bear the same name as a part of Greece. That's why FYROM still has this official name - Former Yugoslav Republic of Yugoslavia, because Greece just won't let them take the name Macedonia. They want to FYROM has at least something different in their name, so it can be clear if you're talking about a part of Greece or FYROM. Besides, Greeks believe that they have more right to name Macedonia ( and I agree with that because of historical facts ) than FYROM does. And name is also a property to a certain extent, so no wonder Greeks are stubborn about it. |
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Frank B
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Oh well,
First it was just the name. Then, FYROM also claimed that Alexander the Great (who was born in Macedonia in Greece ans was speaking Greek) was also from FYROM... That was childish if not stupid and irritated many Greeks. Indeed Macedonia was larger and encompassed the area of FYROM as well as the majority of the known world as an empire back then.
But the Slavs that now live in this area (mostly Albanians, Serbs and Gypsies) have nothing to do with the history or culture of Macedonia in ancient Greece. They are there only the last 1000 years.
That's all and the fact that they try to re-discover their own identity...
Apart from this, Greece is the larger investor in FYROM...
Cheers! |
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frida81
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If you were Greek you would understand.
It is not childish to be mad ata country because they stole a name.It is not the name which counts it is the history in that name. |
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tes
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Abraham Lincoln was Greek, and NYC is part of Greece!!
If Americans react on this statement, can I say that they behave childsh??
People from FYROM claim that they are Macedonians and Alexander the Great was not Greek.
I won't say if Macedonia is Greek or not. Not even if Alexander the Great was Greek. I will simple ask you one thing:
Can you explain me how it is possible a country with a language less than 1000 years to have as a part of its history a man (Alexander the Great) who lived about 2000 years ago??
P.S.: Even their language (slavic) created by Greeks!!
"Saint Methodius (Greek: Μεθόδιος; Church Slavonic Мефодии) (b. Thessaloniki, Byzantine Empire, 826; d. in Great Moravia, April 6, 885) was a Byzantine Greek scholar, archbishop of Great Moravia, and the main translator of the Bible into Old Church Slavonic using the Glagolitic alphabet created by his brother and collaborator Saint Cyril. Since 1980 the two brothers are the patron saints of Europe"
(source: Wikpedia)
if you want to see more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet |
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aheosellinas
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Simple... I will put you in our frame of mind and leave it up to you to determine if your actions would appear childish.
.. imagine you have a dude that from morning till night is with you and goes to the washroom with you, and goes on dates with you and never leaves your sight... he dresses like you and claims that you don't exist and that he is the real you.. and tries to convince everyone you meet that you dont exist and that he is the real you...
Annoying right, if this was done long enough you may even detest this person...
Well you see this is what is happeneing with these guys from F.Y.R.O.M. , and your question is proof that this happens often enough to get anoying..
we have two choices.. ignore them or set the record straight... if we ignore the person will still follow us around.. and never stop in fact gain strenght and confidence that you are not trying to stop him....
.. so we do what we can to set the record straight, you see we do not hate them, but it gets very annoying when they persist in making claims that are unfounded......ask any real historian... who is right.. they are just making the claims becuase they want to expand their territory!!! |
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hard_n_tender26
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The name is not the main problem. The problem is that they claim our history, meaning that they try to steal our history. For you it might seem meaningless, but for us Greeks its something important. |
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ragzeus
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You are wrong. Greeks do like FYROM. Greece is number one investor in the small Balkan country!
Greeks don't like the stilling of the Greek history behind the name "Macedonia".
You see that small country is actually called "Makedonija" which is its real name. They do play a trick by using the Greek name "Macedonia" and that causes great confusion with authentic Macedonia of Greece!
Edoardo answer is very clear of how that small state was created by Tito’s dictatorship. Huge propagandas took place and it still affects the policy of
(Slavic/Albanian)Macedonia.
Authentic Macedonia of Greece is one of the most important regions of Greece.
The Ancient Macedonians were part of a larger Greek tribe called Dorian. They were very close related to the Spartans and their royal family originated from the Greek city of Argos and from Hercules (Yes the mythological Greek hero!) himself!
With the influence of great philosophers –like Aristotle and Isocrates- the Macedonian royal family undertake the great task to unite the Greek states against -the long lasting enemy- the mighty Persian empire.
Philip and especially his son Alexander were responsible for the global spread of the Greek civilization and culture in such a magnitude that almost the entire near east became Greek for centuries!
Of course all the evidence clearly proves that ancient Macedonians were Greeks. Every archaeological discovery from every part of Ancient Macedonia is typical Greek. Every inscription, monument, tomb, coin is written in pure Greek. And ofcourse we have the testimonies of the Macedonians themselves claiming that they were Greeks!
(... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Greek by descent, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Greek cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon."
(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)
And one more: "Now that the men of this family are Greeks, sprung from Perdiccas, as they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare on my own knowledge, and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia"
(Herodotus, The Histories 8.43)
There are of course hundred more such references but there is not enough room to mention them all!!!
Yet there are Slav-Macedonians (those are called pseudo-Macedonians) who actually claim the history of Greek –Macedonia simple because they use the name Macedonia.
>Simply read the answer that was given by Ovincka! So many false information in a few lines! Let’s start from the beginning!
The Ottoman province of Macedonia which was liberated by the Greeks in 1913 was always considered Greek by almost every researcher and historian of that time!
Such as F. Bianconi in 1877, by Edward Stanford in 1877. Ami Boué in 1840 and Guillaume Lejean in 1861, August Heinrich Rudolf Griesebach in 1841, J. Hahn in 1858 and 1863, August Heinrich Petermann in 1869 and Heinrich Kiepert in 1876, Pavel Jozef Safarik in 1842 and the Czechs J. Erben in 1868 and F. Brodaska in 1869, James Wyld in 1877 and Georgina Muir Mackenzie and Adeline Paulina Irby in 1863, Davidovitch in 1848, Constant Desjardins in 1853 and Stefan I. Verković in 1860, Russians Viktor I. Grigorovič in 1848, Vinkenty Makushev and M.F. Mirkovitch in 1867, as well as Austrian Karl Sax in 1878 published ethnography or linguistic books, or travel notes, which defined the Slavic population of Macedonia as Bulgarian. None of the above discovered any traces of any non Greek “Macedonian” nation!
The official Ottoman census of the Hilmi Pasha (1904) gives the following numbers:
Vilaeti of Thessaloniki Greeks: 373,227 Bulgarians: 207,317
Vilaeti of Monastiri (now called Bitola!) Greeks: 261,283 Bulgarians: 78,412
Santzaki of Scopje Greeks: 13,452 Bulgarians: 172,735
And The League of Nations (Greek Refugee Settlement - 1926) vested with its authority the following count for Greek Macedonia in 1926
Greeks: (1912)513,000- (1926)1,341,000
Muslims: (1912)475,000- (1926)2,000
Bulgarians: (1912)119,000- (1926)77,000
Various(Jews/Vlachs): (1912)98,000- (1926)91,000
As you can see there is no trace of any non-Greek Macedonian or non-Bulgarian Macedonian.
> Again the ridicules argument about 1988 and the renaming of Northern Greece appeared!! Let’s clear this up ones and for all!! The geographical term “North Greece” or “Northern Greece” is STILL IN USE today!!!! Ii is used to describe the Greek regions of Epirus + Macedonia + Thrace together!!!!. Never, never the term north Greece was used to describe only Macedonia. And certainly the term “Macedonia” was always in use.
(You see now how incredibly lies they use!!!) The Greek word “Macedonia” has been used by Greeks for the beginning of the ancient Greek kingdom. And of course it’s been used for 3.000 years. Long before the Slavs appear in the area. The Slavs later used only the word “Makedonija” (a Slavic alternative of the Greek original!)
Just to demonstrate how stupid the argument is about 1988 lets see some examples of pre 1988 usage of the name Macedonia!
Numerous Greek organizations (and the Greeks only!!!) under the Ottoman occupation had and still use the name Macedonia. The most historical is the famous newspapers “Faros Of Macedonia” established in 1880, and the famous “Macedonia” established in Thessalonica in 1912 and still works today!
Almost immediately after the liberation of 1913, authentic Macedonia became a Greek province and was divided in 3 peripheries with their own administrations (peripheries of west, central and eastern Macedonia and they are called like that since 1913 not 1988).
(By the way at that time the name Macedonia was used only by Greece. The modern Slavic/Albania Macedonia was called Vardaska or South Serbia.)
Another example. Three army groups of Greece had been using the name till now! The Greek Army group of western Macedonia {fought in World war I(1914-1918) and World War II(1940-1941)}, the army Group of central Macedonia {also fought in World war I(1914-1918) and World War II(1940-1941)} and the same applies for the Army Group of eastern Macedonia. And of course “The Society for Macedonian Studies (1939)”,
“The museum of ancient Macedonia (1961)” and “The museum of the Macedonian struggle (1979)”. By the way the 3 peripheries of Authentic Macedonian are EU peripheries and the name “Macedonia” Is protected for regional products! That means that only Greek products from authentic Macedonia can use the name "from Macedonia"!
>And of course the ridicules argument that Greece change Slavic names into Greek ones!!!! All the Greek toponymes in authentic Macedonia are the original Greek names that were used by the authentic Macedonians! Such as Aigai , Pella, Thesalloniki, Veroia, Oresteias, Philipoi, and hundreds more like Anthemous, Almopia, Amphaxitis, Bisaltia, Botiaia, Chakildiki, Edonis, Elimeia,Eordaia, Krestonia, Lynkests, Mygdonia,Odomantis, Orestis, Pelagonia, Pieria, Sintiki, Thassos, Tymphaea and more!! Or do the
pseudo-Macedonians want us to believe that Thessalonici was actually called “Solun”??? And Alexander’s horse was called “Zastava”. Incredible claims!!!!
(Of course there isn’t any map portraying any “ethnic Macedonians”. There are only Bulgarians or Slav-Macedonians). |
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candygreekgirl!♥
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of course its not a childish vendetta my dear!!
Fyrom wants to use Greek history to achieve their commercial and political goals!!
but that's totally wrong!!
and one other thing: Greek ppl don't hate fyrom ppl
its all bout politics
@ |
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edoardo_visconti
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It is very simple and complicated at the same time.. FYROM was just a territory of Yugoslavia called Vardarska (from the river Vardar) until the former Yugoslavian leader Tito decided to claim exit of his country to the Aegean Sea, as this have always been the dream of all Balkanians. Therefore, for propaganda reasons he named this territory after the name of the greek province Makedonia, where the kingdom of ancient greek - macedonians was located.
After the collapse of Yugoslavia the inhabitants of this little country kept this name and insist on being recognised as the true descandants of ancient Makedonians, while they are just a mixture of Savic, Albanian and gipsy populations, they stole the symbol of the ancient Makedonian Dynasty, they even stole the name of Alexander and named, for their own purposes, their insignificant airport after him, and they provoke us in every way one can immagine, while they stay alive because of Greek Companies established in their country and giving them work...
They even claim the greek city of Thessanoniki as theirs, calling it "Solun"...
So, it's not only a matter of stealing another countries history, but it is also a matter of bad taste, since a nationality of no history and culture, which came out of nowhere, a group of smugglers, drags traders and sacrilege criminals (recently they murdered two greek nuns in a monastery of Peloponissos just to robe it) pretend to be something using false "proof" and immoral means
P.S. Provatina, get out.....You are ignorant and pathetic... My grand father, ITALIAN if you want to know, got a high medal fighting for Greece against Slave intruders like your (undefined) population and Bulgarians at the battles of Tzoumagia, Kresna, Lahana and Kilkis....
So, either as Italian, or as Greek, I just despise you because you are just a bounch of thieves, either you try to steal territories, or names and history....The same way I despise your bloody protectors who, just like you, have no history of their own...
P.S. 2 You can give me as many thumbs down as you wish... That's the only option you have.... |
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Zoi ((Ζωή))
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Hello,
I am a greek, high scholl teacher of Greek Language and History.
I agree with you, it is childish, qwarelling instead of looking at the future -that doesn't wait for us- instead of trying to improve our lives and our countries, won't help us become BETTER!
To be honest, I don't know anyone that despices FYROM, and I am from Kilkis!
I think that greeks have grown up.
Our HISTORY is the most important thing that we, greeks, have, it is WHAT WE ARE!
But it is not the ONLY thing that we have!
I've been to other countries, but this sence of FREEDOM, this sence of DEMOCRACY, is something that I have found nowhere.
Yes, stealing a name may hide war intentions (that is what Greece claims), but we are here, now, and are working for these modern Greece, that is changing every day, with beautiful minds, with well educated people (decause greeks are much better educated than other european folks).
So, people that aren't willing to make changes, or simply poor educated or poor people, want this "remedy" of hate to feel important, to fill their lives. |
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cpinatsi
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Fyrom is not only stealing a name, but it is trying to usurp Greek history, symbols, and to claim Greek territories of the real Macedonia, which is northern Greece. Look at ovcichka's answer and you will realize, if you know the true history, how the lies these people tell can make Greek people mad. |
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Leonarda
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We never stole any name, all people know about Macedonia the province of nothern Greece.Recently i dont know why this topic has occured..
Personally, i got tired to fight about it in this site, so i prefere just to give my answer, and nothing else..
And be sure, we dont hate anyone.They enter in our section, we never provock them...But this is free, everyone can enter and expose his point of view...It is really tiring to fight...i have enough of it..
And i repeat:We dont hate anyone, we just express our point of view..If they think that we hate them, and we are so bad, why they enter in the greek section?
Regards...
I want to add that personally as persons, i dont deslike anyone..They defend their country as i defend mine..Thats all..
Peace guys, for God s sake, peace... |
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Eleni H
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I am Greek and I can say that I like Fyrom.
I have nothing against them.
I also had a friend in Fyrom that I met in Chalkidiki in Macedonia (the authentic,Greek Macedonia) many years ago when I was there for holidays with my parents.
But,their politicians (Tito made the beggining) have created a fake way to remind us the history in our location and those people who are thirsty for a glorious past (they are thirsty because their ethnic identity is a little bit confused) as you can understand, believe that it is true.They have nothing else to make them feel united.Of course there are some people there that know the truth.My Fyromian friend ,for example,knows about her Bulgarian identity(her name is totally Bulgarian) and she has not a problem about it.She accepts that fact and she is proud of being Bulgarian.
I can not understand why they want so desperately to persuade the world that they are descedants of Alexander the Great!
So,you can understand that the Greeks from the other side,that their grandparents have died for Mavedonia in previous wars how they feel when someone wants to take all that from them.
If all that thing have never happened and their name was something else Greece would help a lot that country.It could be good for both of us.Don't forget that it is also an Orthodox country as Greece.
Let's hope that it is going to be a good solution but I am not so optimistic about this matter!And the reason is that Fyromians NEED to feel that they have glorious ancestors like Alexander the Great.Even if they know that it is a lie... |
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I'm Macedonian!!!
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Macedonians didn't steel anyone's name!! Greece is the one who stole Macedonians's lands. In case you didn't know, Macedonia is recognized by it's constitutional name by many countries in the world, including: USA, China, Russia etc
If Aegean Macedonia has always been greek, how do you explain the fact that when Greece got the part after Balkan wars, greeks were a minority in the region? It was populated mainly by Macedonians and Jews. And how come there is still big macedonian population over there, that doesn't have basic rights to call them selfs Macedonians and even speak and learn on their language. And Greece was the country that invented democracy, or wasn't?
In 1913, as i said Greece was awarded Aegean Macedonia and renamed it to "Northern Greece". Funnily enough, northern Greece was for so many years called just that, 'Northern Greece', and it had its own minister...the name Macedonia was considered somehow suspect.
In the 1980's when it became evident that Yugoslavia was going to disintegrate and a part of Macedonia would become independent, Greece was afraid that they would lose Aegean Macedonia to a reunified Macedonian state. Therefore, propaganda that "Macedonia is 4000 years of Greek history" began. The very country that tried to destroy the Macedonian name now claims that Macedonia is Greek.
This is a non-issue. Before the Greek propaganda changed, you could not say the "M" word to a Greek. They vehemently denied the existence of such a land, people, or language. Now they claim that the land is Greek, but there are still no ethnic Macedonian people or language, that it is simply "Slavic" or "Bulgarian".
In Greece, the government tried to eliminate any trace of Macedonia. Since the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, however, a concerted programme was implemented in order to prove the "Greekness of Macedonia". Institutions such as the "University of Macedonia" opened in Solun (Greek name-Thessaloniki), the "Museum of Macedonia" and a news agency called the "Macedonian Press Agency".
"In August 1988 Greece renamed "Northern Greece" as "Macedonia". Only since this renaming have Greek claims to Macedonian heritage gained widespread publicity."
"...Greece did not refer to any part of its current territory as Macedonia until 1988, when Papandreou's government officially adopted the name Macedonia to replace that of Northern Greece. This point added weight to the notion that the dispute with Macedonia was a manufactured one."
Here is a quote from Traianos Hadjidimitriou, Greek journalist and former member of the Greek parliament.
• "Today, Macedonia is an accomplished fact. For 50 years, we Greeks avoided raising the issue, mostly under pressure from the United States. Today, ladies and gentlemen, we are paying for our own indifference and our lack of foresight."7
As Mr. Hadjidimitriou stated, Greeks avoided "raising the issue" of Macedonia. If it was such an integral part of Greek history, as they now claim, why didn't they always claim it to be Greek? Educated Greeks will admit to this, although they give excuses, because there is no way around the fact that they used to deny the very existence of Macedonia.
Since 1913, official Greece has been trying to banish native Macedonian names of villages, towns, cities, rivers, and lakes in Aegean Macedonia. For example, the little stream which issues from Mount Olympus and flows into the Aegean Sea is labeled Mavroneri ("black water") on the maps made by Greek cartographers after 1913. However, the same river appears as Crna Reka, a native Macedonian name meaning "black river" on the maps made before 1913. Kukush has been dropped for Kilkis and Serres for Serai, together with at least 300 other places all over Macedonia.
The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones".
But as the facts point out, the Macedonians were not wiped out from Aegean Macedonia in spite of the many assimilation attempts of the Greek government. One such fact is the ethnic map of Europe in The Times Atlas of World History, where the Macedonians presented as separate nationality cover the territory of complete Macedonia, including Aegean Macedonia in Greece.
Today, the CIA Ethnic Map of Balkans and Macedonia is yet another proof that the ethnic Macedonians today represent a big national minority in northern Greece or Aegean Macedonia. According to this CIA source, the Macedonians live in all parts of Macedonia: Vardar (today Republic of Macedonia), Pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria, and Aegean Macedonia in Greece.
The Greek government denies the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity,even worse it denies the existence of a Macedonian minority within its borders and refuses to grant these people their basic human rights.
THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS RECOGNIZES EACH NATION'S RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION. THE MACEDONIANS THROUGHOUT THE BALKANS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT BORDERS THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN, HAVE THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, HISTORY, CULTURE AND TRADITIONS. GREECE AND BULGARIA ARE THE ONLY TWO COUNTRIES TO CONTINUE TO DENY THEM THIS RIGHT.
peace |
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