Who should run Ireland's schools... the church or state?

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rauls ghost

what do you mean the church? school is for learning facts!

if parents want to teach their kids about magic in the privacy of their own homes great, but its not for school.

Soul Jacker

Having experienced 14 years of catholic education the state without a shadow of a doubt.

I wish we would follow the French example were education is completely secular.

Religion only serves to segregate and indoctrinate children in blind obedience under the guise of 'faith.' It should only ever exist in the private sphere where it's a deeply personal thing, not forced upon children who are too young to decide for themselves in a place which is suppose to be their second home.

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Responce

I’d just like to counter a few arguments deburca has made below.

1. The Churches (plural) owned the land most primary schools are built on fair enough. The State has foot the bill for everything else since it was formed in the 20s yet the respective churches still get to run the schools as religious intuitions. In most cases the land churches was a gift to the ‘divine’ (buy your way into heaven and all that) and where money was paid I can assure you the money came straight from the Irish people the Churches were happy to take regardless of people’s situations. So in all honesty I think we’ve gained the right to call them our Schools

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/ownership-of-primary-schools

2.You can not equate the modern nationalist movement and opposition to British rule (which originates for the enlightenment which countered the teaching of the Churches) to the Catholic Church’s desire to control our education system. The Churches all had their own vested interests in controlling the education of young people in Ireland, primarily to make us subservient to their organization. And look how they’ve profited in Ireland.

3.I’m sorry but you come across as extremely arrogant and elitist by assuming parent who disagree with you know nothing about or should have a say in the way their children are educated. In a Democratic Republic we all have the right to have our voices heard. Hidden Curriculim only refers to the way in which cultural values and attitudes (such as obedience authority etc) are transmitted through the structures and teaching in a school. Don’t assume it’s always positive.

In the North the Hidden Curriculum in Religious schools was used to promote distrust and segregation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0828/1219873098640.html

4 There are many children from lower income homes who are disenfranchised by the Irish School System, there is no getting around the fact that it is elitist. The Church has huge sway over which teachers get jobs and what values are passed on and IMHO they’re not all positive. It’s also completely wrong to assume morals can only be passed on by Religious institutions. Frankly I think the catholic Church’s position on homosexuality is abhorrent and make no mistake such values have been and are being passed on to our children. A secular education is just as strong in creating well rounded moralistic human beings

5 Finally I’d highly contest that sex abuse in religious institutions in this country was carried out by individuals. It was not only systematically carried out but covered up at the highest level.

http://www.independent.ie/topics/Child+Abuse+Commission

The Church has a lot to answer for in this Country.

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Lauren I’m going to assume from your post you’re religious. That’s fine and I respect that that is your choice to make.

My problem with moral education in Irish Primary schools is that it is controlled by a religion. If your are a Christian parent then fine I’m sure you would be happy for your child to grow up with Christian morals but as a humanist I’m not happy with this arrangement.
It’s not about shoving religion down anyone throat it’s much more subtle than that. Values are passed on as deburca mentioned above through the hidden Curriculum. Religious values which have very specific opinions on the different roles the women and men should take, homosexuality, contraception and most importantly unbridled submission to this person called God who decides who’s good and who’s bad.
There is no room for free thinking in religious Schools.

athene noctua

Although I'm working in a Catholic school, and not too unhappy about it, I think the current system is totally wrong. The Churches should keep to their churches and stay out of schools these days. (It annoys me no end to see the communion classes held during school hours in primary schools). Especially in Northern Ireland it is visible to all how the silly Catholic versus Protestant "ethics" argument is preventing an integrated school system and perpetuating segregation. Atheist/ Pagan/ Agnostic teachers like myself are forced to be hypocrites unless they want to be out of a job, since the state explicitly exempted the Churches from anti-discrimination laws.

It's exactly that "hidden curriculum" which I'm strongly questioning. People of other or no faiths often have no option at all but to send their children to a Catholic school, even though they would not wish their children to be indoctrinated at an early age.

Edit: There is also the question of responsibility. At the moment it looks as if the state has no legal responsibility for the welfare of the pupils, or the behaviour of the teachers it is paying out of our taxes.

Christine

I was educated within the Catholic school system, and thank god its changing, if you pardon the pun.

Because of our history it was necessary for the church to run the schools, otherwise would we (catholics) even have gotten an education? But thankfully those days are long gone, and its time for secular education to come into being.

The country is too diverse, too multi cultural to sustain a catholic education system. And even within the Irish population attitudes are changing, (my own brother is an atheist). And ultimately religion is a personal choice, it should not be politicised or forced on anyone.

We should thank the nuns, brothers, priests and bishops, (but not all of them) and move on.

tzddean

The state. The teaching of religion to children should be the responsibility of parents and the religious institution in question. I didn't feel that religion was shoved down my throat in school, and of course there are many good things about the Catholic religion. But as a person who no longer believes in God, I don't like the way there is basically no option but to send your child to a religious school. It is also unfair on primary school teachers who are atheists, since they have very little choice but to teach children what they consider to be lies.

Priscilla Duck

I think that families have a right to send their children to a school with an ethos in line with Catholic or Church of Ireland (or other mainstream religion) traditions, provided the curriculum is a secular one devised by the state and that children of any creed can attend any school and not have religion pushed down their throats. Schools could have a communal prayer in the morning, but shouldn't really have one before every single class. At present, in secondary schools at least, that is the only major intrusion of religion on how the school day is structured. Religion Studies is a comparative religion studies subject and teaches about six major world religions which is a very worthwhile subject.

In primary school, preparation for Communion and Confirmation take up valuable teaching time - surely this should be done on Church time, not school time? Not all tax-payers are religious - why should they fund teachers to perform religious preparation? If people are serious about their religion, their children should go to after school classes or Sunday school. In Germany, church members pay an extra tax which goes to fund this sort of thing. I wonder how much of a drop-off we'd see in Church membership if the same thing was introduced here?

I also think that the official curriculum should be standardised across all schools, regardless of their creed or lack thereof. At present, although the curriculum is centrally developed, how it is taught is up to individual schools, and sometimes individual teachers. For example, a study by Kathleen Lynch, a professor at UCD, showed that 80% of schools do not cover the CSPE module on Travellers, which goes some way to explaining the ignorance settled people have regarding Traveller culture and traditions. This is not really a matter of religion but of commitment to proper inclusion by school principals and BOMs.

--DeBurca, I don't know when you did you HDip, but these days the term 'hidden curriculum' has extremely negative connotations as it refers to the ways in which the powerful middle classes reproduce inequalities through discourses surrounding schooling, to the detriment of the working classes and minority groups. It is not about raising youngsters into maturity, but about reinforcing and perpetuating norms that serve middle class values interests and exclude other groups. The reason it is 'hidden' from pupils and parents is because it is a dirty little secret that no one wants to publicise.

ivastupidname

State in the majority of cases. I don't mind Catholic schools, etc being available for those that want it though. My family is of no religion and my parents only had the choice of one primary school to send me to when I was younger. And then, going into secondary school, I only had the choice of one non-catholic school. I still had to sit in religion class and stand for prayers during assembly though, which, though it isn't much, was very difficult and frustrating when I was twelve and thirteen, being told to pray, etc.

daisy

state

elle

The State.Its rude of the Catholic church to assume that we are all Catholics, besides for too long that Catholic church ran the country and look how backward we were!There is a school in Dublin for immigrants because the local national schools were crowded and they gave priority only to the Catholics.Its disgusting!I attended a national school, despite not being Catholic.Everyone was fine about it except this bitter nun Sister.Phil, who had a go at my mom about it.

Pooh Bear

The State.
Its the best of a bad bunch but the church is no place to be running the schools.
Let them take care of Sundays and the rest but leave the schools be!!

Podge and Rodge Tribute Band

Sher ye can all go running down the church but if it wasn't for the clergy giving of their land and facilities and educating us for the past 70 odd years we'd all be a bunch of illiterate morons.
Would you have trusted successive Irish governments to provide a decent education system without the input of the Catholic Church? We wouldn't......

fenderbloke

Well, I went to a catholic primary school and I can't see why people object to it - whenever we had a religion class, the non-catholic students simply didnt partake, or left the classroom to do something else. Im in a pretestant secondary school, but religion is taught from an open, non-protestant perspective (Hell, 2 thirds of the teachers are catholic anyway). My answer is state, but i also believe if parents want their children to learn of a religion then the option of it being in school should remain

Flying mop dog

The state. Almost every country that allows the Church to run the schools is backwards. If you want church run schools then they can be private and non-funded.

deburca98

Well considering that the church owns the land that the schools are built on then the state would have to buy them back.
The church provided this service when the british government wanted us to be proselytized, and assimilated into good british subjects like a factory line. Read john cloohans book a history of irish education.
The fact of the matter is that when the british government would not provide us with an education the church stepped in to help the irish people, a lassez fair attitude by the british coupled with a will to keep the people ignorant was not tolerated by the irish clergy.
If you go to the US or the Uk or even the arab states, the most prestigious and highly sought after educational systems are the catholic schools. Catholic schools are sometimes private schools in other countries and parents have their children's names on a waiting list to be accepted wile the children are in primary school.
This has much to do with what is called the Hidden curriculum as it is to do with the state curriculum. The hidden curriculum is about raising young adults into maturity , eg are the school play , teamwork and co operation are experienced, this is never fully explained to the students and is integral in all catholic schools.
There are plenty of state run comprehensive and vocational schools in ireland but i bet your parents choose the catholic school because they felt it would raise you with the values that they expect to be important.
Its not just about the curriculum but development into a fully rounded individual.
Just because you went to school dosent mean you have a say in how the educational system is run neither does it give you an insight into the complexities on the psycholigical and sociological factors at work in every school.
Teachers have to deal with this every day from parents who believe that because they did their leaving cert that that means they know everything about running a school and teaching, when none of them have ever heard of the hidden curriculum.
While some of the individual in religious educational institutions were prepratrators of henious crimes against children and humanity, the majority gave their time to ensure we could hand our values and culture to future generations and not fade away into the dark. I would suggest you read the book i suggested and then you will see what the catholic church has done for education in this country. I am not a holy joe but i respect the good the catholic church has done for the people whist I abhor the bad.

xxEllexx

I have to disagree with "Soul Jacker"

I just finished catholic secondary school and also attended a catholic Junior school
At NO point (especially in secondary) did i ever feel like religion was being 'shoved down my throat'
Im not a 'devout catholic' or anything of the sort but i have a good understanding of Christianity and also, (thanks to my religion classes) a knowledge of other world religions
Theres nothing wrong with the Church running the schools so long as they leave room for free thinking

People have very 'set' (and innacurate) views about church-run schools...
Why should a "church-run" education system necessarily equal an archaic, restricted system?

Also! Im not saying that the State 'shouldnt' run the schools - im only saying its unreasonable to suggest that church-run schools are going to "brainwash" all the kids

caito kid

The Protestants.

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